Happy Patriarchymas!

Yes, I will get some of her stuff Thunder - she is Catholic, which is interesting, because I think there are some quite specific challenges to Catholic women that protestants don't face and vice versa, so I will find it interesting.

It says it's Martha's house, I think they did not have husbands / fathers there (they would have been in Marys place if they were there). So I guess they would not have been beaten, though they would have been socially stigmatised. I think Jesus is saying some things are more important, women are alowed to have different priorities to what their culture says - which was very transgressive.

He does cook for others in different stories - not in this one though

I feel wierd calling god it, I use she or he, usually just 'You' in my head if im praying.

God calls herself

"I Am" or "The great I Am" or "I Am Who I Am" in hebrew. (YHWH)

Sorry, that did not mean to sound like I was disagreeing wth you completly mooncup - yes, the women who would have been present have been written out of the story. Very unlikly Mary would have given birth alone, for example - but her female helpers are not mentioned.

but is partly a social thing - our nativity story that we retell in schoo plays and childrens books misses out a big chunk, where Mary chooses to visit Elizabeth alone, and Elizabeth has a prophetic insight into who jesus is, and Mary sings a song where she says she is blessed above all women and all generations will call her blessed. Its in the bible, but our society misses it out even though its bang slap in the middle of the nativity story.

To expand a bit on my earlier comment, ("He" is the default/de facto neuter pronoun in English),

"He" is a very commonly used default pronoun for "people" if the speaker doesn't want to explicity describe them as being male, but the male norm is still usually implied.

I agree, thunderboltsandlightning, that it wasn't women who would have decided that, and I don't like it's almost exclusive use for supposedly neuter or male-and-female things.

When people refer to God with a supposedly neuter version of "she", I get the impression most people just think that it is daft - "political correctness gone mad" etc., because they regard it as so alien to what they have experienced as the norm. It annoys me that "she" is not regarded by the general public as a serious candidate for the neuter pronoun.

Also, let's not forget the neuter pronoun, "it"!

Mooncup how about the story where Mary visits Elizabeth?

Ahh, sorry thunderbolts - I though you were swearing at me and it confirmed my view of the feminist board as too scary to post on! at self

The book, by the way, is not an academic text (i can reccomend something else if that's hat you'd prefer?) but is structured as a conversation between 2 respected chistian feminist theologians, and is aimed at christians exploring the issue, though is very accessable if you are new to Christian theology (or to feminism, which I was when I read it at 19!)

Messy, yes, the maleness of the language in the bible is explicit and by and about men. That's why Jesus is so interesting - why sometimes it seems like even the gospel writers don't know what to make of him. There was a talmudic saying at the time or shortly after (sorry can't remember the ref but can find it if needed) that 'It is better to bury the Torah in the earth than to teach it to a woman'.

Contrast this with the story of Mary and Martha. Jesus visits these sisters, and Martha is very stressed out with wifework while Mary sits and listens to Jesus' teachings (this is a role men would usually take with an important Rabbi visitor, women would usually be serving food etc). Martha says to Jesus, 'Why are you talking to Mary - tell her to come and help me!' And Jesus says, 'Martha, you are stresed out by so may things. No- Mary has chosen the better way'.

That's the kind of thing I mean - Jesus' appraoch to women and gender issues in the gospel is complex, nuanced, and deserves examiniation. The fact that the church has plenty of episodes of shameful history and that many f these stories have form the very start been problematic to the powerful men involved with Chrstianity does not detract from this.

It's very striking in the nativity story that all the men get to do things, where Mary just submits. She's told she's with child by the Holy Spirit, Joseph drags her to Bethlehem, she gives birth unattended in a stable, then lots of random kings and shepherds turn up, then she presents the baby to the temple in accordance with Jewish tradition to be circumcised admired by more men, then God tells Joseph to take her and the baby home via Egypt.

At no point in the entire gospels, as far as I can remember, does Mary ever get a chance to make a decision or take action on her own account. Her virtue, in the eyes of the church, lies in being an adoring doormat.

"He" is the default/de facto neuter pronoun in English.

I totally agree Elf and Thunder on the big male pronoun cover up. It's so frustrating when we are patted on the head with the "but it's the generic 'he'". If you look closer at what people are saying when they say this they are usually talking about male specific things.
Also in the past when they used the He pronoun they would have openly admitted that they were not talking about women, eg the US constitution use of 'man' blatantly excluded women yet now we are expected to believe that this has all changed. I must have missed that particular memo!

ABird thank you for the book recommendation. I will most definitely buy it.

Abirdinthehand wrote - "I wqas bought up in a church where women could not be leaders."

Are there any religions in which women are allowed to be leaders?

(I'm thinking CEO level, not middle management.)

Ahh, off to the rest of mumsnet! Find the feminist boards a bit too... aggressive. "Enjoy the patriarchal mindfuck"? "Appealing to male authority"? Gosh, this board s a bit scary for me!

Elfenor, I have not denied the church through history has been patriarchal and biased. That is what feminist theology is: re-examining the tradition we have recieved to understand how gender and faith fit together considering our history. And reclaiming and reexamining the language of our faith is part of this. These criticisms are not new to Christianity, and there are many many theologians (of both genders!) arguing about it all. Christian feminism has become quite a mainstream area of study, along with the resurgence of liberation theology (which has similar themes but focuses on economic inequality). So yes, there are parts of the church who insist still that only men can preach, that God is entirly and exclusively male... and there are parts that don't. And the debate is there, and growing.

I think that there's a difference between whether someone believes in a godly being, and discussing how patriarchal society has interpreted and used that belief.

I don't think you can tell someone that they believe in a male only god when they believe in a male and female god. The holy spirit was female in many of the Hebrew texts so although there is an image if god the father there is also a female image

That doesn't really make any difference to how the Christian church has used the belief in a god to favor men, wealthy, white etc etc of society.

I think you can have the relationship you want with a deity but the organisation of the church has a whole, speaks ab out that deity as male.

It' a bit like the debate people always have about wehther "man" means human being. You can tie yourself in knots pretending that when someoen refers to a man and "he" "him" etc., they mean he or she, man or woman, but I prefer to be guided by what things mean in English and stop denying that the reason that the male pronoun was always used in English, was not because the male pronoun referred to men and woman together, but because women were being excluded from the discourse. They weren't even considered full human beings, so it was perfectly reasonable to talk about humanity as being male.

I think most theologians agree God as a whole is gender neutral Elfenor. here is a lot of imagery in the bible of god crying out in birth pains, of her brooding over her children like a mother hen with her chicks - Some theologians use the terms 'God the creator' instead. The bible was written mainly by men in a patriarcha society so the words they chose reflected their own experience, and obviously used the term Father. Jesus did too, but again that could be because it was literally true for him?

Personally I do not feel I have a relationship with a male-only God. I have a relationship with a God who created all of humanity in their own image.

abird bought thanks.