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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Happy Patriarchymas!

384 replies

thunderboltsandlightning · 24/12/2011 21:48

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/12/2011 00:32

This thread is really confusing now.

We do have a gender neutral pronoun - it's 'it' in the singular and 'they' in the plural! (And incidentally, there is a long history in Christianity of not using a gendered pronoun for God).

I don't personally believe thunder's interpretation of the Mary story, but IMO the point is that many people do believe that that is what happened, God made Mary pregnant, and she was just meant to be obedient and put up with it, and this shows that women should always put up with what men say and do. I don't understand how saying that is offensive to religion? The only people I've heard seriously defend that idea are people who quite seriously and literally believe women are inferior and that this is part of God's plan. And TBH I don't really care about offending them, it seems like quite a good idea to me.

If you don't think women are inferior or that men should use a story about a girl who in our culture is of an age considered to be a child, as an incentive to rape young women ... fine, dissociate yourself from it then. I don't understand defending it, and I'm Christian myself.

Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:26

I like the emphasis on Mary as someone who CHOSE to accept the gift and pain of being the mother of Christ, which makes her powerful, rather than someone it was forced on. And that makes a nice symmetry - God chose her, she chose to bear him.

MJ did you ever feel there wasa contradiction between Mary's importance and the lack of women in church leadership?

Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:23

I find the Catolic approach to women so double-sided though Dione - all venerating Mary, but then no women prests? It's fascinating, I'd love to understand it better from a Catholic point of view (most churches I've been to take a 'Catholics mean well but are a bit misguided and heretical' approach, which I find a bit rude and shallow - educate me!)

MJinSparklyStockings · 28/12/2011 00:21

abird that catholicism has such a strong female character at the center of the faith which we don't, but sometimes d you not find it uncomfortable that her main (only?) role is as a childbearer? Sorry, really don't want to offend you (or her!) but just interested in your views as a Catholic.

Im non practising and have been for a long time, but I was brought up in a staunchly Catholic background, these are just my views.

Re her role only being a child bearer, that is central, its a very matriarchial view, that the "mother" is all important, I'll talk about my grandmother, rather than the Virgin Mary, because I find it easier to explain.

My grandmother would be an anethma to todays feminists (I think), she fulfilled a very much traditional role, she cooked, cleaned, did all the house work, raised the children, my grand father never did housework, he was the "bread winner", but my grandmothers role, was seen as the most important thing. being "mum" did not belittle her role, it was the most important role.

She was (is) the centre point of our family, the person whose views held most sway, to whom everyone turned. To say Mary was "only the child bearer" is to demean the role of the mother, God didn't just pick anyone to bear a child, he picked Mary because she was strong, good, pure.

She is the "mother", not just of Jesus but of the whole Catholic Church, it may have been hijacked to patriarchy (for want of a better term), but the Catholic Church owes its very existance to a woman.

The village my mother and my grandmother are from is full of icons to the Virgin Mary.

I went to an all girls convent school, we were taught we could be anything, do anything, go anywhere, no limits were put on out education, no doubts about our abilities were cast. It was assumed we could go into any career we wanted, attend any university, achieve any heights. The nuns, were in their own way, seen as strong and powerful women.

DioneTheDiabolist · 28/12/2011 00:17

I may be late here, but I'm a Catholic and women's spirituality and power is there in our telling of Christmas. Joseph is on a par with the donkey and hired help, but Goddess worship is all ago.

Anyway, Christmas is a time for my mother to re-assert her rights over the kitchen, for dad to visit his sisters and for me to have a great day.

I love it.

Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:09

That's interesting Mooncup, yes, I had not thought about Jesus' trangressive approach to gener as evidence of his existence (probably because his existence was never a question for me). But yes - why would the male writers incude these incidents which they clearly find problematic if they did not feel compelled to include them because of truthfullness? It is not the kind of stuff they would want their Saviour to be doing - talking to bleeding women and Samarians and lepers all of the place, yuk!

MooncupGoddess · 28/12/2011 00:03

abird - yes, the Visitation is a nice bit of the gospels, with Mary and Elizabeth meeting up and the child leaping in his mother's womb. But it still doesn't involve much decisive action on either woman's part, does it - essentially it's just Mary going to see her cousin.

And the Magnificat is all about Mary saying how blessed she is to be chosen by the Lord. Classic submissive stuff.

I like your posts though! And I agree that Jesus' attitude to women is unusual and impressive for his time - it is one of the aspects of the gospels that suggests to me that Jesus was a real person (though am not a Christian myself).

vesuvia · 27/12/2011 23:59

TheBrandyButterflyEffect wrote - "there have been (if memory serves) two woman convenors of the Church of Scotland."

Thanks for that information.

Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 23:58

Woo, go the Church of Scotland! I didn't kno that Brandy.

I wend to a church once, and asked , 'Do women preach at your church?'

A: Well, yes, we don't have theological problem with it - any Elder of the church can preach.

Me: Cool! So how many women on the eldership?

A: Ah, we wouldn't allow women on the eldership - we would have a theological problem with that.

Hmm

It was quite mindbending. In most of protestantism though, this is a question for debate, and denominations do change their stances - it must be very hard in catholicism because it sems s se in stone.

MJ, I would be interested in your feelings about the veneration of Mary - sometimes I feel wistful that catholicism has such a strong female character at the center of the faith which we don't, but sometimes d you not find it uncomfortable that her main (only?) role is as a childbearer? Sorry, really don't want to offend you (or her!) but just interested in your views as a Catholic.

TheBrandyButterflyEffect · 27/12/2011 23:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 23:42

It's also funny that my mothers parents, whose roles were very traditionally defined - held my grand mother at "the centre", the glue that binds the family together.

Although my grand father worked while gran was "a housewife" in the traditional sense - there is no doubt that her views and her role was "central" and the most important - what she said went.

In our culture the Virgin Mary is very much revered and adored, probably more so that Jesus.

Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 23:36

Sorry Thunder, xpost.

I thought I was engaging with your topic? I think yes, many church traditions(and our crazy capitalist media-led society in general as well) do make women feel bad about themselves. But I would make a distinction between the traditions of the church and what I see as a centra core of truth in Christianity which no, is not designed to make women feel that.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 23:35

It's funny thunder Christmas didn't / doesn't make me feel bad about myself, the complete opposite in fact, perhaps it's the meditterean family but I love Christmas, I love the presents, the fun, the magic elves, seeing all the DCs happy.

I didn't get a mountain of gifts, but I did get a beautiful text from dss, a big hug and kiss with a thank you from DH, a lot of joy from my childrens faces.

DH put in extra hours to pay for it, I put in "extra hours" to make it. I wrapped - dh supplied the GnTs and nibbles and generally ran around, fetching carrying, finding. Even though this is a more "traditional" set up, it works for us.

Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 23:32

Sorry, I thought it was a debating board.

I totally get why it might be annoying to get people on here denying there is a problem, denying feminism is necessary, denying all the inequalities in our society and blaming rape on women's miniskirts. (I follow some of the threads, I have seen the nonsense you get sometimes!). I guess I am probably not as radical in my feminism as many peple who post here, but I am a feminist.

Like any text, interpretation is key, isn't it? So you say the text of the bible is un-salvagable. I say it's full of crap but there is beauty there too. I am tired of seeing it through the lens of male interpretation, but I do still want to interpret and understand it.

It is interesting that being a feminist means many evangelical Christians question whether someone is a Christian. And being a Christian seems to make some feminists question whether someone is a feminist! Seems I and a whole load of other women are a bit stuck really... nobody wants us! Grin

FrostytheSunshine · 27/12/2011 23:32

It would be something I'd be interested in reading more about. I'm very new to these boards on MN so I'll lurk with interest for now.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 23:28

I don't usually post in this section either abird but this thread and some posts on another thread by garlic have been really interesting.

I'm off to bed shortly and I will read your latest link tomorrow.

We have quite a traditional set up in some ways, because I have the more family friendly employer, but DH cooks, cleans, looks after the children as well as me. I think (in our set up) DH has the raw end of the deal because he would love more time with the children but that's on another thread.

thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 23:26

I didn't say that Abird isn't entitled to join the debate, however she's not actually engaging with anything I've posted about here or the topic of the thread. Saying jesus was a feminist isn't a debate. It's more reflexive patriarchal wah-wah.

What is interesting is the idea of patriarchal religious festivals are designed to make women feel worse about ourselves, to remind us of our unimportance in patriarchal culture, except as workers or worshippers, never at the centre, never divine. That's what patriarchal religious myth is designed to do. Are women interested in examining that?

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FrostytheSunshine · 27/12/2011 23:18

Maybe Thunder Abird is posting on a thread on MN that is accessible to everyone, it's an opinion & she's entitled to join the discussion?

Surely it's better to have to have intelligent debate & discussion rather than none at all? RadFem or not women should be welcoming those who are happy to debate the idea of feminism as so many women today feel it's not a subject that needs debate.

thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 23:13

But it's not really feminism is it? I mean saying that jesus was being a feminist in that scenario is just incorrect, he was nothing of the sort - he wasn't centring women's interests, he was placing his pontificating above them.

I don't really see the point of coming on to a thread which is about radical feminist analysis of religion, based on the work of the very first feminist theologian who frankly hasn't been matched by anybody who came after her, to promote a weak form of liberal feminism that doesn't actually have its focus on women but rather on finding a way to rehabilitate christianity and god.

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noddyholder · 27/12/2011 23:10

You lot spoil everything

Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 23:09

MJ, thank you for being kind. I find feminism fascinating, I like discussing it, but I have never posted on the feminist boards before because i find them a bit intimidating, so I appreciate your kindness. Its fun to debate and disagree, I like hearing the opinions of others, as long as it's friendly and polite!

I so relate to your struggle MJ. I have always felt there was a kernal of truth in my faith, and found great comfort in scripture, and had religious experiences very real and important to me. But increasingly there wasa lot of stuff about my religion I could not stomach (mainly the homophobia and sexism) and it really tore me up. When I read Beyond Fear and Silence something clicked in me - she somehow uses the beauty of the text in a way which acknowledges the way the women in Mark have been sidelined by the writer, but yet still values it and makes sense of it as scripture. She's the one who poses the question (though she may be quoting, I can't remember) 'How do we recieve a tradition biased against us?' which I found so helpful in my understanding of my faith.

Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 22:59

Hmm thunder - I am a Christian and I consider myself a feminist. Am I not allowed to be a Christian and a feminist on the feminist boards?

It just found this which helped me make sense of why we are arguing I think - overview of feminist theology

I'd probably put myself in number 2, the author puts Mary Daley under no 3, (and I will read some of her work because I like broadening my perspective) and then under no 4 and 5 I don't think we're really talking about Chrisitianity at all any more. So, I'm guessing from your posts, you'd scrap the whole thing, I think I see immense value in my faith and would like to reform it.

There's not a problem in us disagreeing with each other is there? (genuinly confused)

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 22:55

I'm finding abirds posts fascinating, like many a Mumsnet thread it's taken a turn, but as someone who struggles with the Catholic Church, it's wealth and violent history and has as a result, turned away from my faith (while still believing in I'm not sure what), this thread is enlightening.

MIL is staunchly religious in a ram it down your throat way, (frustrating at time but she is elderly so we all humour her) while at the same time being a strong independent woman and excellent role model, she is full of massive contradictions.

thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 22:54

And do you know what, in that story, jesus was your typical arrogant man. What he was saying was important, the work that was required to keep the household running wasn't according to him. Maybe martha didn't feel like sitting at the feet of some dull guy pontificating away expecting everybody to fall down at his pearls of wisdom, maybe she had a list of things she needed to do that day.

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thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 22:50

Look there are always people who want to defend patriarchal institutions - pornography, religion etc. I really don't feel like having to bat this back.

Please could you use feminism as your starting point Abird, not defending christianity and jesus, because that's just a maintenance of the status quo.

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