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Original poster

Happy Patriarchymas!

384 replies

thunderboltsandlightning · 24/12/2011 21:48

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

OP posts:
messyisthenewtidy · 28/12/2011 11:07

Sardine, that reminds me of my Brazilian catholic friend who said to me "at home the woman is in charge" as she was slaving over a gorgeous meal whilst the men were in the lounge playing drums!

Maybe she felt power because she was skilled and indispensable, and tbf her Dh did appreciate her, but it seemed a bit of a hollow victory when it resulted in her doing the lion's share of the housework as well as working outside.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/12/2011 10:50

Sardine, that's awful. Sad

abird - I agree. But I think that's why it's important to step back and see the Bible as a tool that the patriarchy has used to oppress women - it has been incredibly successful. I went to a talk about the different translations and people saying that this interpretation on this thread is irreligious would really be shocked to see how some people have used the words of the Bible to justify really horrible behaviour. It does happen. And oppression isn't something you can separate out from the tools of oppression - IMO we need to understand both.

I hope this isn't digressing, but I find it really interesting how many people will admit that, as Christians they are offended by the homophobic use of the Bible. And they will admit that it is easy to find passages that condemn homosexuality, but that this does not make it right to do so. We should I think be doing the same about the anti-women passages - admitting they are there and acknowledging the problem.

SardineQueen · 28/12/2011 09:26

BTW a pope headline did make me actually LOL the other day:

"Pope condemns 'superficial glitter' "

Accompanied by a picture of him bedecked from head to toe in intricate golden robes and surrounded by massive gold candlesticks Grin

I mean if anyone knows about "glitter" and utilising it to its own ends it's the Vatican!

chibi · 28/12/2011 08:59

maybe the power referred to is the power to help clean the church, cook meals for the priests and do their washing/housekeeping

rc women have lots of that power from what i have seen (raised catholic)

SardineQueen · 28/12/2011 08:58

Sorry that's just made me so mad.

(Raised RC and most of my friends still practicing FYI)

SardineQueen · 28/12/2011 08:57

What about the young girls who have been raped and refused abortion? So many harrowing cases - that one recently where a girl of about 12 was excommunicated because she was raped and her family got her an abortion (IIRC). Power lies with women in the RC church what a preposterous statement.

SardineQueen · 28/12/2011 08:55

"Most Catholic women know the power lies with them."

What?

No abortion, no contraception, no sex before marriage (whose going to get found out) and all sorts of awful things being done around the world in the name of this church. No women allowed in any part of the power structure all the way up to the top. I mean, seriously? That's just getting silly.

seeker · 28/12/2011 08:25

How does the Magnificat suggest that Mary had any choice in the matter? It suggests that she accepted her destiny willingly, but not that she had any choice, surely?

kickassangel · 28/12/2011 05:45

I like to hear the full range of feminist thought. I didn't have access to "radical" feminism when I was younger so coming across it here is good, and I am often in agreement with it. However, I doubt that I would even engage with a discussion if ther were only one type of feminism being posted about. The very act of discussion draws me in, and makes me come to my own conclusions.

I think it unlikely that an Internet chat will change anyine's beliefs (religious or otherwise) but having the opportunity to hear those beliefs is important.

I went to a church school and I was never happy with the pTriarchical atmospher, even though it was a girls school. This thread is helping me to see why I felt that way

BluddyMoFo · 28/12/2011 01:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tortington · 28/12/2011 01:29

what i wont have is the bollocks that god raped a mortal virgin: there is absolutley no evidence to support this. fucking feminist hysteria making shit up - have a fucking word

messyisthenewtidy · 28/12/2011 01:26

Sorry, really am off to bed but isn't it true that Catholics have a ton of female role models to choose from in the shape of the saints that the protestants got rid of? Or did they all have to be virgins too?

messyisthenewtidy · 28/12/2011 01:13

Actually ABird, if you are to assume that 2000years of patriarchy has twisted the original message of Jesus then you actually have quite a bit of freedom to interpret the essence of the religion in the way you believe. and it is quite reasonable to assume Jesus was in favour of equality considering that he did treat women as individuals whose worth wasn't solely connected to their sexual purity. Unfortunately the male church founders saw his own celibacy as a rejection of sex and women.

I had to laugh the other day though when I advanced the Jesus-was-a-feminist-because-he told-Martha-to-sit-down theory to my mum who is a committed christian. She snorted with laughter and said "I bet he ate the sodding food she served him though!"

Anyway just off to bed. But please dont be scared of the feminist boards. We may be opinionated but we are a lovely lot really and i for one have found your posts very interesting.Grin

MJinSparklyStockings · 28/12/2011 01:06

I wonder, if MIL walked out of Church and never stepped foot in there again, who would be there to look after her, when we cant be??

Who would visit her, take her to hospital appointments, take her for lunch, help her with chores, and generally care for her well being?

Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 01:04

My dream would be for every catholic woman to walk out of that church and never set foot in it again.

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 28/12/2011 01:02

Most Catholic women know the power lies with them. Most priests know this too. Where women are educated and knowledgable, the church follows. But at a snails pace, so that they keep the developing world on side.

The Catholic church ceased being a leader long ago, but it never forgot the role of the Goddesss is necessary and it's women drive it forward.

Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 01:00

Men wrote the bible. Men invented god in their image.

That's where my argument begins. From that we can examine the stories they created, and felt the need to tell e.g. the virgin birth, jesus the son of god etc, and why they felt the need to invent those particular ideas. What were their motivations? What did they achieve by getting people to believe these stories?

OP posts:
Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 00:58

Well OK Abird, but this thread is about the bible as myth and symbolism and the way in which it promotes the patriarchy and oppresses women. It's just another book, it's not special, apart from the way its message has been used to harm so many women, and to justify that harm.

I know it's special to you, and to millions of other christians, and boy hasn't christianity been able to force it down the the throats of so many of us for two millennia. However there is a religious section if you want to talk about religious faith rather than feminist analysis (which doesn't rely on faith or wishful thinking). You could even start a thread about feminist approaches to faith in this section. However on this thread you are derailing the topic which takes as its starting point examining patriarchal religious myth.

OP posts:
Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:49

But Thunder, I believe the Bible is in some way 'special', it is scripture to me (and to millions of others). But I also recognize that the stories in it have been retold and interpreted so many times in patriarchal ways that they have come to symbolis things which, in fact, I do not think were actually there at the begining. So much of the christian feminist theology I have read reinterprets the text from a starting position that the old interpretations are based, the male writers were biased, but God is not biased. It's not wishful thinking, it's redressing 2000 years of bias.

MJinSparklyStockings · 28/12/2011 00:46

abird, you would probably love chatting to MIL, she loves God, and the Church, she goes every day and is accorded massive respect within her community.

Whatever you thoughts on the Church as an institution, they certainly look after her well (she is a long drive from us and we cant always be there). I am glad she has her faith, it comforts her, makes her happy.

She was widowed at quite a young age, and is quite content in her belief, that when she dies, she is going to God and to her husband, whatever my personal thoughts on that, I find her faith touching.

Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:44

Ohh, goodness, thunder, this is the first time ever I will post bible verses on MN! But since you are ok with it, I will suggest that you stopped reading to early - mary's song straight after this passage shows her as having made a positive choice:

Mary Visits Elizabeth
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah?s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary?s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: ?Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!?
Mary?s Song
46 And Mary said:
?My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me?
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.?

56 Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.

Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 00:42

Once again, this thread is about christian symbolism and myth-making i.e. what is actually contained in the bible and christian dogma that came from that.

Just to say, "well I wish for something different", isn't actually an argument.

OP posts:
Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:39

LRD - I guess I would distinuigh between what really happened - which I believe was positive, life affirming, and gave Mary a choice - and what we have recieved through 2000 years of patriarchal religious interpretation. And I would be happy to reject the latter (which I would call 'religion') but defend the former (which I call 'faith').

I don't think it's offensive at all to discuss it though!

Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 00:38

Mary was kept on in christianity in order to entice in the pagans who needed a goddess to worship. It's why there are Marian cathedrals all over France. The protestants completed the goddess erasing project of christianity when Mary was cast out of their worship.

"I like the emphasis on Mary as someone who CHOSE to accept the gift and pain of being the mother of Christ, which makes her powerful, rather than someone it was forced on."

Well if men can persuade people that the woman consented then there is no rape. Acquiescence "Thy will be done" isn't consent though and it certainly has nothing to do with power. It would be crazy to argue that anybody else apart from god had power in that scenario.

"Luke 1:26-38
New International Version (NIV)
The Birth of Jesus Foretold

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth?s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin?s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, ?Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.?
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, ?Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob?s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.?

34 ?How will this be,? Mary asked the angel, ?since I am a virgin??

35 The angel answered, ?The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.?

38 ?I am the Lord?s servant,? Mary answered. ?May your word to me be fulfilled.? Then the angel left her.

OP posts:
MJinSparklyStockings · 28/12/2011 00:32

I stopped practising at about 20, and at that time, had never considered the lack of woman in the priesthood, but the nuns who taught me were accorded huge amounts of respect - they were seen as strong powerful women, so I had never really seen there as being no women in leadership. Our head mistress was not "less" than the Parish Priest, she was just "different", with a different role.

I am far from the biggest fan of the Catholic Church and I am no Theologican, these are just my personal thoughts, based on my own experiences.