Happy Patriarchymas!

Zombi - I'm wih you :), but if you look further down the thread you will see relating your own experiences is narcissistic .

Zombi,go somewhere else.This is a thread for the oppressed.You'll spoil the ambience.

I agree that religion is deeply mysoginistic. Years ago I asked Xenia how she was both catholic and feminist, as I find it hard to sit the two together.

The whole image of celebrating childbirth I fine problematic. Obvious the arrival of a child is good but how women are perceived I find very mixes messages about.

Loads of images of pregnant women or women with new born relate back to virginal expectations. But preg women often seen as dirty or shameful is they remind people of sex. The idea of 'didn't she do well' in sometimes a patronizing way. Or that somehow a woman cheated by having a cs. Almost no red to the trauma and mess of childbirth

Then we celebrate it.

Prob not v coherent but not sure of my own thoughts on this,

Need to get up and feed cats, have breakfast but will be back later

I bought the presents but hubby wrapped them and made the dinner just as he does every year.

Shit slow typing on iPod. Imagine my comments appearing about 5 mins before they do

But the men are doing those things as their paid employment, for which they are respected. The whole point of wife work is that it goes unseen and unthanked.
There are laws protecting workers from oppression an abuse, but very little to protect a woman against working al day, staying up til midnight to wrap presents, then getting up at night if the kids wake up.

If an employer expected that from an employee, they could be taken to court. If a family expects that from a mum, she is supposed to enjoy it.

Women are often so conditioned to accept this that they are complicit in the arrangement which is why it's so damaging. Mentally, it can be impossible to see a way out.

I may be missing something - but I don't get how DDs 1st birthday party is centred around a man - it's centred around dd and all her little friends.

I wont.I'm just going to look up the word germane now to see if I should be offended.

oh lollygag, your posts are as germane as they are entertaining

don't ever change

Labnur sounds like a rude word.

ee by gum

xmas, not xamas obv.

i don't think that anyone is saying that you can't enjoy xamas as you wish, even where that means that the lion's share of the work undertaken to facilitate it is done by you

i think the point is that we can look at it critically, and from the premise that a just society is not one where festivals mainly (sewage works notwithstanding) depend on the labnur of one sex, primarily to glorify the other sex

Oh shit I forgot a after my little joke there!

But wouldn't it be better to raise the bar for everyone than try to remove the enjoyment of those who do like the occasions?

Interesting. Of course we should have celebrations and enjoy them - but also be allowed to look at them critically and see what they mean and what really happens during the festivities. In a patriarchal societies celebrations are probably going to be centered around men in some way and women are going to do the boring work - most of the cooking, cleaning, shopping etc.

There are a lot of wonderful things about the winter holiday season. When we understand what is bad about it (women doing all the work etc), we can begin changing it to something better.
Wishing you all a patriarchy-free Yule as possible next year :)

chibi you are right.We should give thanks to the women who raised all those fabulous men.Absolutely.

That's a sexist comment! (but quite funny).

YIKES at the great long list

Men make all the electricity do they

Must be static from their xmas jumpers.

or if you like, we could also give thanks to the women who gave birth to and raised all those fabulous men, and their mothers too, from whom they likely learned precepts of childrearing, and their mothers as well...

lollygag, are you missing the points of my posts on purpose, or am i being unclear?

i posted:

xmas - the tradition is a big slap up multi course meal, beautifully decorated house, thoughtfully chosen presents, cards for all and sundry - mostly, it is women who are making this possible (regardless of my own personal circumstances, or yours, or Betty Sue down the road)

in theory we could do an oscar style list of people throughout history to thank, but most people's experience of xmas and other holidays probably relies on the experiences more close to home

i had a great xmas this year, as did my family

it was not predicated on wifework, or on expecations that i was somehow responsible for everyone's happiness, even where it was to the detriment of my own

i am not saying this to boast, but just to clarify, i really don't think it has to be a choice between festivals which depen on women's servitude, or a joyless existance devoid of celebration

it just seems like a false choice

and 'well i enjoy doing x y z for my family' doesn't negate this argument - have a look at the many many many threads over the last few days in relationships or christmas borads posted by women at the end of their tether precisely because of the cultural expectations that they are responsible for producing the whole megillah

Well it's not all 'constructed on women's backs' chibi.I like to credit the men who produce the electricity for the big day.And the men at the waterworks and the sewage plants.And the men who built the roads so we could go to the shopping centre.Oh and the men who built the shopping centre.And the men who work on the freighters who transport goods around the world.And the men who built the house that I live in and the hospital I sometimes visit.Actually if I look out my window everything that I see was built by men!
Maybe they do have some uses.