Happy Patriarchymas!

That was given as an example. Actually am pmsl though. Surely it is really liberal (if not entirely feminist) for the head of an established religion to be so concerned about the welfare of male prostitutes.

The teaching on condom use has changed to enable male prostitutes to use them to prevent disease. So far so liberal.

Yes Seeker, that is the case. The reason for this is that the church is the people. The hierarchy seldom lead, instead they tend to follow. I think this is true of most established religions where the congregation are mostly born into the religion, as opposed to converts. Scientology for example does not behave in such a way.

BTW, I think the teaching on condom use to prevent the spread of AIDS has changed recently.

What I find really, really baffling about the Catholic church is that it has rules and doctrines and all the rest, and some of them are astonishingly misogynist. But I'd you challenge q Catholic about them they always say "oh, we don't pay attention to the rules we don't like"

So people in sub-Saharan Africa are supposed to not use condoms to protect themselves from AIDs because a consequence of their use would be to prevent conception, but catholic women in the Home Counties can take the pill because "It's a matter of conscience"

Picking up on Chibi's post, it seems obvious to me why women should identify with the message of redemption through suffering that the Catholic church presents.

It's not such a big surprise either, that some of the most beautful, moving hymns are negro spirituals which came out of slavery.

I do not know a single religion that isn't patriarchal, that is because they were founded in patriarchal times. There are none still in existence from before the agricultural revolution, when men became dominant.

Sardine, your comments on the attitude of the Catholic Church with regard to sex before marriage, contraception and the threat of excommunication of women who have abortions, only apply in the developing world. When did you last hear of someone in the Uk being threatened with excommunication? Or even being refused communion for having sex or taking contraception?

Well thanks for being honest but I still don't get why beatitudes which encourage the oppressed to see their lot as a blessing should appeal to either sex, least of all women.

leaving aside the potency of inculcating belief in the very young (c.f. the Jesuit 'give us the child until he is 7 and we will give you the man') and the comfort of habit, and cultural expectations there is something beyond that that keeps women going

For all that it is a juggernaut of oppression there are some powerful ideas in xtianity - viz the beatitudes: blessed are those who mourn, blessed are the meek.

Or the bit about consider the lilies of the field, who neither toil nor spin; or His eye is on the sparrow etc.

i have heard it called pie in the sky when you die, which is blunt, but accurate

as far as memes go these are potent for people who are oppressed. this is a bible thing, not a Church thing; the Church doesn't go in for liberation theology quite so much and has a detailled track record of stomping it out

Then there is the Virgin Mary who is v easy to identify with as a woman more done to than doing, and an icon of strength through submission

i guess that's why i go, or some of it. it is totally at odds with my feminism, and i don't know that it could ever be reconciled. At its heart, i suppose that this is the way i know how to be a person of faith.

i couldn't possibly defend it as feminist on any level; consider me like your smoker friend who smiles a weak and hollow smile when antismoking adverts come on telly.

People can quibble all they like about what Jesus may or may not have said (it was all written down third hand many years after his death) but the Christian church is based more on the teachings of the apostle Paul who was about as mysoginistic a bigot as you could find. (Truth be told, he was a hater of mankind)
I'd like to see figures on church attendance because, patriarchal as it is, I see women as keeping it in business. I'm basing that on my observations of the 5 sin temples I have within walking distance of me. It is nearly all women I see spilling out of them on Sunday mornings, bringing the children along for good measure.
In the case of the Catholic church, I find that incredible and disturbing. I suppose it's a tribute to the power of brainwashing children but I wonder why it seems to be women in particular who are still keeping the whole rotten ship afloat. Talk about licking the boot that's standing on your neck.
What is the attraction?

ABird I've ordered a copy of that book. When read, maybe we can discuss it if youre up for that? I'll start a thread to see if you're about. [Fsmile]

the impact of religion on society is v interesting.

i'm currently trying to find an online MA in equality/women's studies because I feel so horrendously ill-informed on so many matters. Almost all the posts I make are just my own musing, I have no ref. to back up my thoughts.

I think it's prob a life-times study to really analyse society, but I'm still interested in trying to make sense of the world that I live in.

I've been interested to hear the differing opinions about Christianity viewed through a feminist lens. It's not something I'd given deep thought to, and it's interesting to me because even though I'm an atheist it has a huge impact on our cultural lives.

Thanks kick, just wanted to say I wasn't really aware of all that about trolls etc - tbh I read some of the feminist threads, but when some random person jumps in on a thread with 'but if women are dressed like that they should take responsibility...' or crap like that,I loose interest- we all know they are wrong, we all know the arguments against, and whilst I respect tose of you with the energy to fight it out I don't have the energy to read it all(again!). So if I missed nuances on the feminist board or posted things which would be inappropriate had I known all your recent history, I am sorry - I am a newbie!

But I'm really, truly a feminist, and really truly a Christian, and really truly not a troll. I came with no agenda other than to discuss an issue I find interesting with others, and hear their views on it, in the hope f developing my own thinking on the matter.

and abird - you should continue to post, OR poost wherever you want!

abird - don't stop poosting. I don't agree with some/all of your posts, but then I'd say the same of everyone on mn, so that shouldn't bother you.

Part of the problem is that a typical 'troll' tactic is to pretend to be disingenius about a topic, and bring in arguments that sound kind of supportive of feminism, but then use that to say 'so your arguments are wrong cos this is feminsim' and to ignore the points made by others. There have been some posters who did that on a very regular basis, and it was pretty much an attempt to stop the conversation from progressing towards more 'hardcore' feminist arguments (fwiw, I'm really not sure the labels we use are accurate).

You have come across as someone with a genuine point of view, willing to discuss it & trying to be open minded.

There are disagreements within feminism, as within any political movement. you may need to just agree to disagree with certain other posters.

Personally, I think that it's perfectly normal for a conversation to veer off onto tangents. It happens naturally. Sadly, some posters on mn deliberately do this in feminism to stop the feminists being heard. So, bringing in tangents can be seen as an aggressive move.

I almost feel like this thread needs to be split into two - 1. The social pressures to conform to a role of womanhood. 2. how religion perpetuates misogyny.

Those with stories of how your household is equal - i think ti's fair enough to say 'over here we've got a result' but it can sometimes sound a bit like 'I'm all right, so why bother'. But that's the problem with the internet rather than rl

Typo,sorry!

'Deli Smith with a dick' - Now that's a phrase you don't hear everyday!

abird I've found your posts fascinating and well written (and I bought the book) - I genuinely hope to cross threads with you again.

Lollygag I can't help it. The man is Delia Smith with a dick. I'd compare him to Ramsey or Oliver but they ARE dicks!

MJ

Hey all, I really, really agree with Chibi that there are 2 issues - the way women tend to do all the work of Christmas, birthdays etc (which I don't think is really about religion per se, it's broader than that) and the other issue of whether Christmas and other Christian festivals are patriarchal in their stories and symbolism. They do benefit from being examined separately, and I would have no questions that the first issue is defiantly an example of misogyny in action for a great number of women - and also lots of media representations, adverts etc at this time of year reinforce those issues.

Thunder, I really don't think I have derailed this thread. I thought you wanted to discuss the patriarchal aspects of Christmas. We have discussed whether the nativity story as told in the bible and as told by society is patriarchal. We have discussed the role of Mary in catholic and Protestant traditions. We have discussed whether the maleness of the central character of the gospels means they are necessarily patriarchal, or whether he could be constructed as a feminist. Yes, I approach this from a standpoint of faith, and you don't, but I feel I have explained myself clearly and have given the reasons behind what I think as much as I am able to with the speed the thread is going and the time I have. I have pointed you to the books / theologians, and bible passages which have influenced my thinking on this, just have you have. I have enjoyed discussing these things with other thoughtful, intelligent women.

I get the feeling from your posts that because my feminism does not look like your feminism, you feel it is not valid and you do not want me to post. I have in no way tried to proselytise my religion here - and if you feel that is what I have done I am very sorry. I am not evangelistic in my faith, and certainly would not want to convert people. I am genuinely interested in the way others navigate the difficult spaces where gender and religion overlap and clash, and I want to hear what they think - whether they are christian or not.

This is the first time I've posted in feminism, and I chose this thread because it is an issue I have read about and thought about a lot, and which has had a deep impact on my own life. I'm not sure I'll post again tbh, but I will continue to read the threads with interest. And I have met some lovely people with interesting views, for which I thank you all.

I don't assume that because my family is fine etc - I have enough life experience to know differently - all may be fine in my life now - but that certainly hasn't always been the case.

However I would like to see improvements for those who don't have the same enjoyment - not a loss of enjoyment for those whose celebrations (of whichever festival) are pleasant for them.