Happy Patriarchymas!

Actually Architien, I've been raped and I don't find Thunderbolt's arguments offensive.

Just so you know.

Truth is we will never know what happened with Mary seeing as it's highly improbable that she was impregnated by the big G. My guess is that Joseph was the actual dad and that's why he agreed to marry her.

Whichever way you look at it the Nativity story definitely fails the Bechdel test!

MJ Yes it is a tad offensive isn't it especially to those who have ACTUALLY been raped :(

as well as those who have just celebrated their religious festival as a family.

I justified why it was empowering already you are just not seeing it. It's ok to disagree in my opinion. I am talking to you as an equal, considering your point of view and was attempting to have a conversation because your first post seemed very angry. You seem to be stuck. Nowhere did I say that "raping 12 year olds was OK". You appear to be spoiling for a fight misquoting and using shocking statements, not really engaging in conversation.

My best wishes to you at Christmas/ winter festivities (whichever is more suitable for you) all the same.

I thought I had read some extreme views in my time, but the idea that Christmas is based on God Raping Mary - words fail me.

Re Marys age - given life expectancy at that time, in order to have children and be around to raise them, rather the leave then motherless and or fatherless at a young age, I would imagine early marriage was a necessity for both sexes.

I'm a lapsed Catholic but I'm sure such extreme views are offensive to anyone of that faith and any other similar religion.

Mary was visited by the Angel Gabriel and if you want to follow the bible - conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit - I'm not sure where the idea she was raped came from.

It's like the Marxist argument that the first step towards communism is for the working classes to see the inequality that they are in.

Telling people that they are in a situation because they have allowed it is victim blaming.

Some people may see the inequality, but actually consciously agree to go along with it. Many, many, others don't though, or only vaguely feel upset/depressed because of it, without really being able to articulate why. These people probably come across as the whingers & moaners, who love to be a victim. Some of them may be that kind of person, or even someone who doesn't see the work that their partner does, and takes them for granted.

But leaving aside those kinds of people (who are probably on a personality disorder spectrum, and therefore in a minority) there are still huge numbers of people - mainly women - who are in an abusive/oppressive/taking advantage relationship who don't quite get why, and still feel pressured to do all the wife work, resent it & then feel guilty for resenting it. That kind of cognitive dissonance is damaging to the individuals and those around them.

So, until there is a more universal recognition of the problem, threads like this need to exist.

Of course, once people see the problem, then some kind of action is needed. Some people have the power to change that. It could be as simple as talking to their family and sharing out the wifework equally. Others may find that they have a huge struggle to change anything. And when you risk losing your marriage, home & upsetting your kids, then it becomes a very difficult situation indeed.

Thunder context is very important, girls the world over no doubt at that point in time were married at a very young age. I would like to read the links to "most biblical scholars" that you quote say age 12, perhaps you could PM me at your own convenience. I have for a very long time seen references to 14-15. Again I think that even that age is too young but then the culture of that time needs to be considered. This was the norm for a very long time before Mary was even born as I understand it and the Holy family at the time were not accepted as such by the general population much less held up as "an excuse to rape young girls". These days my faith doesn't even agree to marry folk unless they sit down and agree to contribute to family life equally.
Mary was the start to a change that was (and still is in my opinion) required in the world.
Merry Christmas/ winter festivities (whichever suits you best) to all.

kickass, yes

Sitting at home with your lovely husband who washes the pots and cooks the turkey is great. Simply saying "well I did it, so you can" is not helpful in the slightest. I could do that every single christmas.

it won't change anything for those women who don't have it though

only a societal shift will effect that change...and empowering women to say "actually I don't want to do that anymore" will help with that

along with the message that those who uphold the status quo are skating on thin ice if they want to hold onto their relationships

many, many people need the unfairness pointing out...I was reading a thread only today where the OP said she had been going along with some awful crap from her family and male partners for years without realising quite how badly she was being treated. having it poited out by strangers helper her to make a stand...

that refrain has been repeated all over MN ad infinitum

I doubt you will ever see a thread where somebody comes back to say "thanks for telling me I made my own bed, and thus I should have to lie in it..."

Going off to cook a Boxing Day dinner for 10, because I want to.
May you all have a happy and contented holiday.

'dust and any relationship thread of that nature has that sort of advice on it, so I don't see your point, tbh'

My point is so simple, I'm not surprised that you couldn't see it.
Why not do something about it, as an adult independent female? you are not trapped, or owned or a minor. Why not change your situation instead of wailing about how unfair and nasty it all is?
This attitude is why I don't post in relationships BTW. I lack understanding and tolerance.

Thunder your tone indicates to me that on the subject of our family beliefs you are not particularly open minded or respectful but instead antagonistic and so I'd rather than a lengthy one-sided bun fight please understand I would like to spend my time elsewhere. Rape is a very serious topic which is horrific. I'd suggest reading Matt. 1:17-23. It was not rape. The bible, nor other records, have her actual age. She was however known to be of usual age for marriage which was apparently 14-15 years due to the lower life expectancy at the time.

I've read this thread with interest and have discussed several points with my DH. There is always value in discussion but also value in action. By action I mean anything from small changes to your own life up to throwing yourself under the kings horse!

Personally I think the fem boards on MN are good for reading, they make me think and surely that's the point.

dust and any relationship thread of that nature has that sort of advice on it, so I don't see your point, tbh

And sometimes, even if you know that there' inequality, it doesn't mean you're able to be the one to bring about change. When women campaigned for the vote, they could campaign all they wanted, but if men didn't change the law, they couldn't vote. I may campaign all I want about not buying all the christmas presents, but if no-one else does it, there will be a lot of disappointed people, and dd will see me being blamed for it and internalize that.

So personal responsibility is part of the solution, but not everyone has the power to make the changes. At some point we need to get those people with the power to see the injustice and want to change it as well.

No, of course it's not bad. I just think we can do both (personal responsibility and role of wider society), what I've been trying to say all along is that I feel the feminist discourse on this particular issue has become rather skewed towards one of those things, and that it isn't productive.

But I can see that challenging that is going to meet a lot of resistance here. I've certainly had enough of it for one day!

...and perhaps it's just in my nature to also look out for the people who, by dint of upbringing, social situation, circumstances etc etc are not in the best position to look out for themselves ??

just a thought...

'It doesn't mean I cannot examine what is going on around me and not point out the unfairness of it'

I think it is necessary to do so, but then the question is how to effect change in the quickest and most effective ways possible?
Waiting for a bloke to realise that sitting on his arse being waited on is not a good lifestyle may take forever. Removing the cushion, sharing all the responsibilities of being a couple or a family or a fellow worker takes more effort but works better in my experience.
Silent sulking and whining and getting huffy is pathetic.

Of course personal responsibilty is important

I am personally responsible for my own life

It doesn't mean I cannot examine what is going on around me and not point out the unfairness of it

Is that so bad ?

I can absolutely see how it happens. It exactly defines my life. I have a degree and a good job and hate inequality BUT it seems that everyone around me just goes along with the idea that it is women who do all these things.

My parents are shocked at any mention of Dh doing housework, and MIL once slapped my wrist (literally) because I forgot her wedding anniversary. When I told her that Dh did his side of the family, she didn't say a word to him.

And guess what? I do ALL the stuff for Christmas and all that crap. It doesn't matter whether I enjoy it or want that kind of house/experience, no-one is even thinking that it's their job.

Now I do want all the things like a tidy house etc ( actually struggle to think in a messy environment ) so I do it. I wonder what would happen if I didn't do it though.

So I completely get the pressure on women to do these things. And because we're meant to go along with the myth that it's effortless, it isn't even seen, let alone appreciated and valued.

The time and effort it takes to do these things interferes with the ability to live independent successful lives and build careers. It supports the structure of society and is therefore a huge issue.

I'm procrastinating! I will get on with something useful very soon, I promise

But seriously, I do want to discuss stuff. Like why/how so many women seem to have got themselves into this unhappy situation (and how some of us have been lucky enough to avoid the trap), and how they can get out of it. And how much we as feminists collectively can do about it, and how much comes down to the individual woman to make her own choices.

To use an analogy, I've struggled badly with weight and eating problems in the past. And there's a time and a place for sitting around discussing and musing over why we overeat - and this is valuable, because it's so often an emotional thing, and there are lots of traps for the unwary, people talk about an 'obesegenic' society with cheap and readily available fast food, high-calorie snacks, 'hidden' calories etc, and there are class issues too, education and money and time come into it. But none of that 'fixed' my problem. The only thing that could was me, realising that in the end it was my hand picking up the chocolate and putting it in my mouth, and I and only I could prevent myself doing that.

Personal responsibility. Why is it so bad to talk about that?

I think I posted on the wrong thread, it's all becoming a blur.