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Original poster

Anyone else feeling wifeworked over by Christmas (and DH)?!

110 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 13:03

Yes, this is a bit of a whinge thread. But I can't be the only one. Eleven months of the year I'm not that fussed but at Christmas I do care. Selfishly. For me. Because I don't actually enjoy having no decorations, a messy home and no Christmas meal.

Do you find that it's worse at Christmas? I think it's partly the expectations that come from outside, and all the tradition - it makes it that much harder to get away from traditional expectations both of what I should be doing and what, in total, should be done for a good Christmas.

Btw, if you can get us out of this pattern please tell me how: since the Wifework thread a while back, I've been doing a lot less and DH has been doing a little more, and the mess has been driving me nuts. We'll muddle along until I crack and point out x hasn't been doing in weeks, and could he please get his finger out - he'll insist he does do it/was about to do it, all evidence to the contrary, and we'll row. Then he'll admit he hasn't done it, but he'll get better. And then he doesn't do whatever it is, though he'll often do something else, something obvious like hovering. And I will feel 'why should I do this job, he said he would'.

It is a crap pattern.

Anyway, right now I have a tree and nothing else, and I am not feeling full of Christmas cheer because there are half a dozen things he's said he'd do that still aren't done. If I do them it undercuts the whole point of trying to get him doing stuff; if I tell him (again) it's possible three of them will get done ... but for the love of God does it have to be like this?

Whinge with me, and remind me Christmas is not about the little stuff, please?

OP posts:
blackcurrants · 21/12/2011 15:36

aaand in the time it took me to write my mega-post, everyone else said what I said.

YAY ROTAS!

dreamingbohemian · 21/12/2011 15:35

Oh here's an idea --

I seem to remember your DH is a techie of some sort?

Can you agree on a rota, and then program his computer to remind him what to do?

That way he gets reminders but it's not you doing the nagging.

If he can't manage even with all that, god help him.

blackcurrants · 21/12/2011 15:35

LRD: I, too, love Christmas and have a DH with a 'take-it-or-leave-it' attitude towards the holiday; his dysfunctional family either ignored christmas or it was a toxic, drama-fuelled mess. For me, it's magical. It's the only time of year I get homesick, and I want a tree, carols, presents, and twinkly lights from about the 20th for at least two weeks. Well, not the presents for two weeks. DH has worked out that I like to do something pretty special for Christmas in our family, and he's on board. he's done half the food stuff, and a lot of the social-organizing -that said, I have done everyone's presents (HOW?) and while we haven't sent cards this year, I feel guilty about it whereas he wouldn't have even considered it, I expect.

Regarding the cleaning, it seems to me you're in a situation where you're doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. My DH was, and is, a bit messier than me, also we care about mess in different ways. What helped was having a "this must be done!" list (inspired by this list) taped to the fridge, and, I shit you not, space for the jobs to be ticked off and initialled. If it was my name up there doing all the work, and his on none of the tasks, he couldn't ignore that actually, he wasn't pulling his weight keeping the house a clean and safe place for our child, and a pleasant place for me to work all day.

Do NOT let this go, and do NOT have a baby with a man who hasn't got into a 'every week, whether you think it needs doing or not, you clean and mop the whole house' mentality. It's ridiculous and bizarre that he hasn't worked out that the loo gets cleaned by someone once a week, and so he should do it every other weekend. It's absurd, and he needs to face that.

it IS extra work making the list, but at least he can't ignore what's (1) taped to the fridge and (2) physically demonstrating to him both how much needs to be done to keep a place okay and how much he's not doing, and you are.

Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 15:33

Thanks both. It is good to post about it (hope I don't post too much, I'm aware it is a bit of a theme!), because it reminds me there isn't some simple solution I'm missing (except to the surrendered wives, of course!).

I am going to try a written rota. I think we both resisted it but it needs doing - now I just need to write it! And it would be a good New Years Resolution. Smile

FWIW, we live in a tiny place that should practically keep itself clean - it's just if we don't sort this now, I think we never will.

I do feel a lot better now - instead of going for a walk (or rather, as well as), I've cleaned out the pennies jar and bought a fiver's (!) worth of greenery on the market and it is sitting in the sink soaking up water and looking all Christmassy. Smile

OP posts:
PlentyOfPubeGardens · 21/12/2011 15:08

Hi LRD, sorry to hear things haven't much improved. I can honestly recommend the rota system I instigated back on the other thread. We've been doing it for around 3 months now and it's great, I only have to cook a couple of times a week, ditto laundry and washing up. All the rooms in the house get cleaned once a week and I only have to do one of them! Best of all, not only is the work shared out, but the nagging reminding is too - if somebody goes to cook and the washing up is still sitting there, it's there in black and white who's supposed to have done it and the cook will go and rip them a new one remind them Xmas Smile Something to consider for the new year maybe?

Christmas though ... yes there's all this extra work and it's the sort of stuff that reflects badly on you if it's not done. I will admit I'm doing most of it and sucking it up but it's not as bad as it was last year when I was doing all the normal housework as well.

Yama · 21/12/2011 14:40

Yes, it is a real problem. I get het up about the amount men do in the home because I want my dd to end up with someone who respects her. My Dad didn't/doesn't treat my Mum like a skivvy, my brothers don't treat their wives like skivvies so it really depresses me when I read countless threads on here or meet women my age and younger who live like this.

I don't blame the woman by the way, well not exclusively. I don't know who to blame. There is a solution and MN is great for allowing woman to see that they don't have to live like this.

Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 14:33

Gosh, dreaming, I don't know. I'm going to go out for a walk and have a think about it - thanks for getting me thinking.

bigblue - it is a good book - sadly not I think as well written as some and there's plenty to disagree with, but it is realy interesteting as a theory.

yama - I think the isssue is that by not picking up the slack, I end up living in a home that depresses me. I do really strongly believe I have a right to live (and work, because I'm a student and work at home) in an atmosphere that's pleasant, not a tip. It's not precious to expect it - if I were single, it'd be easy. And that is the real problem, isn't it?

OP posts:
Yama · 21/12/2011 14:28

Yes, the personal is the political and all that.

I don't know what the answer is. Me personally, I just trust that dh will do as much as me. Not just with housework - with dc's school and nursery, with family, with organising holidays etc.

And he does do as much as I. Expectations? Shared outlook? Respect? Don't know but I certainly wouldn't burden myself with picking up the slack for another person's commitments to family life.

BigBlueBear · 21/12/2011 14:26

Wow LDR I think I need to get that book and wave it under DH's nose, because that's exactly how I feel. I completely see your frustrations over having to ask your OH to do stuff - I do the same and feel my DH just rebels against me asking, which only makes things worse.

dreamingbohemian · 21/12/2011 14:26

Okay, would you say that in your mind you have made a sort of quid pro quo whereby you are making an extra effort because of his fasting so he should make an extra effort at cleaning and general Christmas cheer?

Do you think he would accept this as a quid pro quo?

Would he think that it's only fair for you to make these efforts because he is doing X for you? (is there some other X he's doing for you?)

Does he actually appreciate the extra efforts you are making because of his fasting? What are the extra efforts?

I guess I'm trying to work out whether what you have is a communication problem where he is, maybe, a bit dense and would respond better if you had clearer communication or whether what you have is a selfish and lazy husband problem.

Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 14:20

bigblue - 'Wifework' is a book, which puts forward the argument that in our society, wives are expected to do all sorts of small jobs and to act as unofficial organisers and PAs to their husbands, a lot of the time. The author gets into all this research on how much women and men do in the home, or by way of organizing things for each other, and found women do a load more than men, but that both men and women have huge difficulty even realizing the imbalance is there.

There's a long thread about it, but it's a good concept ... she talk about how women are judged for untidy houses/ungroomed children in a way most men are not, and masses of interesting points.

I find it really helpful because outside of MN, lots of people seem to think that housework is too boring to be a feminist issue, whereas it seems on here that it's pretty important day to day stuff for most of us.

OP posts:
Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 14:17

That's exactly what happens here rainy.

It is so frustrating. I said to Dh last time, that when he gets angry because I've asked him to do something, it feels like he's punishing me for asking. Because it would be simpler and less stressful for me simply to do it - and that way lies me doing everything.

dreaming - TBH, I think that the fact that what I do for DH, though I do it gladly, is to do with non-negotiable dietary issues, makes it feel a bit different.

OP posts:
BigBlueBear · 21/12/2011 14:15

The OP could have been written by me. And I understand utterly what Rainy says. But what is this wifework thing?

dreamingbohemian · 21/12/2011 14:09

x-post

Well that IS absurd. Hmm. Let me give that a ponder.

RainySmallHands · 21/12/2011 14:08

He does pitch in. But he doesn't just DO it. I have to ask. Then I ask again. Then I ask again. Then I write him a list. Then I nag a bit more. And then comes the shouting. Then I make him a new list because he has lost the old one. And then he does it.

dreamingbohemian · 21/12/2011 14:08

'if you like a clean house, why shouldn't everyone pitch in to help you get it?'

My DH does indeed do a lot more cleaning that he would normally, because he knows it makes me happy.

I guess I would just feel bad either demanding or expecting him to do it, because while I like the house to be clean, it's not way up on my list of priorities. If I'm going to ask him to put himself out, I'd rather it be for something that I really do care about (which he does as well, taking care of DS in the mornings).

I think our relationship has a good give and take, we each do things for the other that we wouldn't normally, to make the other person happy.

But I don't like the idea of expecting him to do those things, because I wouldn't appreciate being expected to do things that I'm currently doing voluntarily to make him happy.

Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 14:05

dreaming - don't call me an academic, I'm not there yet (and you'll jinx me! Grin). And no need to apologize for length.

I have told him it's all important to me - to be fair, that's why he compromises on stuff like coming to my parents, which I know he's not mad keen on.

The thing with splitting tasks is that when I specifically ask him to do something, he'll do it. But he won't do anything spontaneously. So there's a very small number of tasks he can manage, like taking on bins when they're full. He insists the rest rely onn some kind of arcane judgment call he can't possibly manage - and I cannot begin to communicate how absurd I find this.

OP posts:
Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 14:02

notjust - that sounds lovely! And pretty funny if your ex has suddenly realized, too.

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 21/12/2011 13:59

Oh sorry that's long -- fellow academic here Smile

dreamingbohemian · 21/12/2011 13:58

Hmm, okay. For Christmas, have you ever put it to him the way you've said it here? Sort of like: Look, Christmas is a big deal for me, I know you don't care about it so much, but it would really mean a lot to me if you could help make it a special time (or something).

Then you can see how he responds to this. If he still doesn't do anything, well, that's not very impressive.

I know ideally you wouldn't have to say anything, but sometimes you have to really spell things out for people.

On wifework generally -- I think you need a better system, one that works for you both as individuals.

I am much cleaner than my DH -- he is just less fussed about it, and also really doesn't notice until things get bad (he is honestly just not very observant, he will sometimes leave the house with two different shoes on!)

So we have divvied things up so that while we do an equal amount of work around the house, he does the most obvious things and I do the more detail-oriented things. So he does dishes, bins, mopping, also paying bills and DIY, while I keep on top of general cleaning and laundry. I keep track of supplies and what we need while he does more of the actual shopping.

It sounds like you are trying to split each task 50-50, when you might be better off splitting the tasks between you.

But to be honest, none of this will work if he's not willing to make an effort.

You do need to sort this out now, before you get a FT job out of the house and have kids, etc.

Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 13:58

But rainy, if you like a clean house, why shouldn't everyone pitch in to help you get it? I'm sure you do things for him too.

I never understand why compromise is made such a virtue here - it always seems to mean women being told they can't expect anything more.

chibi - thank you. You are helpful. It is nice to hear from somoenne else with experience of orthodoxy. He has fish, and the priest gives him dispensation to have meat one day, so when we visit my parents on Boxing Day he'll have turkey. I do get that it's non-negotiable, but it's still a faff and my thinking is, if I do that for him, he could afford to do some cleaning for my sake. We do effectively celebrate Christmas twice, but we're trying to work out what we'd do with children and so on - but he does get all into Christmas presents for his mates and wrapping tehm up beautifully, so it's not that he just doesn't care or doesn't feel comfortable with English Christmas.

I will talk to him about tree/decorations and see what he says, as I may be getting it wrong.

Good to 'hear' from you btw. Smile

OP posts:
NotJustForClassic · 21/12/2011 13:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RainySmallHands · 21/12/2011 13:55

LDR, you should hear the shouting coming from our house on occasion! DH is very stoic in face of such demented behaviour and usually tucks me up in bed with a Brew or in severe cases, ushers me gingerly into the other room with Wine. And does several very competent jobs while I take a breather Mumsnet. He's not all bad.

chibi · 21/12/2011 13:51

in orthodoxy all the xmas deco stuff ithat make christmas chrisymassy iyswim is not so important (one side of my family are orthodox) though repeated exposure to western culture will change that

I was raised this way, and so i am meh about gifts and trees and cards BUT i do all of it to the extent i feel comfortable cos it is my childrens'/dh's/ils' culture and i want them to be happy

fasting is important though, if he is a believer it is sin-o-rific to not fast, and this really is non negotiable. He can have fish, though iirc.

having said that, in my childhood, we did xmas twice - can you do one and he does one? To celebrate it together i mean.

He needs to make more of an effort though, everyone in a marriage should be providing for the other's happiness, though i am not the best role model here at the mo

wish i could be more help

RainySmallHands · 21/12/2011 13:50

dreaming makes a good point. DH LOVES the idea of me doing Christmassy stuff with the DDs and doing Christmassy baking - but he wouldn't care if the house was a tip. That is an extra load of pressure I put on myself I admit.

So I want to do both (organised, clean house & Christmas stuff) but he would happily live in a less than pristine house - so I can't blame him too much...