Culture/religion clash - WWYD

I have just put this "problem" to my DH who is an African Muslim. He says that the African women in question is being unreasonable and that there is nothing in the Quran that forbids this kind of brief contact*

*presumably your DH might stick his head round the door and say "hi" rather than joining you both for tea and gossip!

Because I am a polite person who likes to make her guests feel at ease I guess I would ask her when DH was away. However, as someone who chooses her company and friends from people I "jell" with irrespective of their sex, I can't imagine having anything in common with someone who has a problem being around men in a social situation. It seems so, well, infantile somehow...

But she clearly is fine with it so I would be respectful and invite her over when I know dh won't be there.

I was invited once to an eid celebration by a male colleague. I attended with my dh. My colleague came to say hi, brought me over to where his wife and other women were sat and then left for the other side of the room with my dh. I didn't know the wife! But it was fine. I accepted that it was part of their culture etcetc.

The point is, I think if you want to maintain this friendship it may be that you need to understand where she's coming from with this request. It's not unreasonable I don't think. It's unusual but not unreasonable.

I agree with MrsLadywoman - it is not so much about the practicalities or even if it is ok to ask your DH to clear out for a bit because you want the house to yourself.

It is that you feel uncomfortable complying with a request that you think is unreasonable, and becoming complicit in upholding a tradition that constrains people's freedom to do something quite ordinary - that is get to know other people regardless of whether they are male or female.

You could, like MillyR suggests pretend that this is a perfectly normal girls night in/out situation rather than part of a set of restrictive religious/cultural prescriptions, but that is not really what is going on, and in the end my guess is you will feel more and more uncomfortable.

So I guess the question is how important is this particular friendship to you/your son and will it overcome such a gulf in personal values.

dh would rather eat his own toes than sit with me and my friends! He vanishes onto a computer when my friends come over.

Western society has attitudes about women that I'm not comfortable with, that is why I am a feminist. It isn't really a matter of happening to see it as being rude and being annoyed by it, it is what expectations that person has that lead them to view the other person as rude.

And the expectation is that the woman's partner has the right to be present at all times and that the idea that the woman might have some time alone with her friends in her own home is somehow so bizarre that somebody wanting to spend time with just that woman and not her husband is rude.

Some people choose to see their friends without their partner around, some prefer to have company as a couple. Clearly, there is nothing wrong with either. I imagine that the OP feels a bit weird about the situation because she is being told what to do in her own home.

If a childless friend asked that you clear your kids out of the house when they visit, would you be ok about it? No doubt some people would accept it and be fine, but others would no doubt see it as rude and feel pissed off!

Also, I get the feeling that this isn't simply about the practicalities of how to meet up but about how to accommodate cultural differences without anyone getting offended, while trying to encourage tolerance on both sides.

If it's just a matter of practicalities, of course there is bound to be a time when your partner is out or away, and you can just invite her then. Or I'm sure you can even arrange for her to come and just ask him to go out that day/evening with some mates. Or, if he's not particularly happy about that, you meet up on neutral ground.

I suspect you are uncomfortable about being made to behave in a particular way to comply with a religion that you (rightly or wrongly) feel may have attitudes toward women that you are not comfortable with - hence the 'from a feminist perspective' issue.

Again, personally I would just be open about it. Meet up with her (wherever that is) and at some point have a chat about it, in an easy relaxed way. Hopefully it will lead to both sides better understanding each others views/beliefs so that there won't be this feeling of awkwardness in the future.

I can't see why it is a problem from a feminist's point of view. It seems to me much more problematic from a feminist point of view that some women feel they cannot form a friendship with another woman and invite that woman to their house without the participation of their husband.

OP as other's have said her request is not that unusual. I don't really get why its a problem from a feminist point of view, as she hasn't said her husband forbid her or anything maybe its just her own choice as its not the norm to mix between the sexes and she feels more comfy. It would be a shame to lose the friendship over it if you like her so why not just go with meeting up on neutral ground or invite when your dh is out, surely he must be out at some times??
I don't think it's offensive to your dh, I often say to mine if I have a friend coming round in the evening that can he not come home too early please and he is fine with it. For him socialising with his friends (all male) they mainly do so outside of the house so he would never say for me to go out cos his friends are coming, and if they do come then i just sit in another room. If its one of his friends who I do kind of know then i will say salam to them and get them drinks n ask how are you etc then leave but if i dont know them i just keep totally out of the way and leave dh to it.

Wow! why the need to go down the 'i am not jumping in bed with my male firends' route??? That was totally unneccessary!

There is nothing wrong with trying to accommodate someone else's needs as an act of hospitality. A lot of cultures will go all out to accommodate their guests and not try to slot them into their own lifestyles. I have known children and parents to give up their bedrooms quite happily for guests in these cultures for days or weeks - they would not dream of putting the guest on a air bed! Slightly going off the point, i know... what i am trying to get across is that she hasn't made an awful request and she hasnt been rude. If her request is putting a huge strain on the OP's DH and cannot be accommodated, then fair enough. But if it is simply a case of inviting her around when he is not in, then what is wrong with that? In these other cultures what tends to happen is that should DH come home that bit earlier than expected, the lady will thank you for your hospitality and quite happily get up and leave as it is the polite thing to do!

As a Muslim normally if my friends come round then Dh stays in another room and same if I.go to.friends houses, however we would greet and have general chat with husband, also islamicaly it is not isolation if a third person is there ie the wife so is fine as long as not flirty etc.

With regards to this woman, I would invite her when Dh was out or elsewhere, if I wanted.to help her. I would.check cc etc for Esol classes. If.this.wasn't.too hard for me then we would have a hello goodbye relationship in playground.

Come to think of it there are a few male family members I'd like to be segregated from this Xmas

I shared the information that I choose not to socialise with my friends' husbands unless we're in mixed company. I do socialise with men on a professional basis and if we're socialising as a couple. I am not segregated, locked in a cupboard when visitors come or ignored because I'm female.

This is a personal choice, which is my prerogative. I don't understand why anyone has a problem with that personal choice, and I'm not telling anyone their choices are wrong. I opened this line of conversation to try to shed some light on the OPs question about why this lady prefers to visit when no men are present. Why that provokes the need to state that you aren't jumping into bed with your male friends, I have no idea.

On the whole, reviewing some of the advice on this thread, I despair at what passes for British hospitality.

SolidGold, I agree completely. However, most posters on this thread cannot see the wood for the trees.

Either arrange for her to visit when your H is at work/out with his mates/away on business, or arrange to meet her on neutral territory.

It's not rocket science, is it?

Virgo Believe it or not, I actually have friends of the opposite sex and so does my partner. We aren't about to leap into bed with any of them and don't find their partners 'clingy' (same sex or not) if they want to join in a conversation when we're visiting.

If I want to have a gossip session with a female friend, I'm quite happy to do that in front of her partner. If he gets bored, he'll be happy to park himself in another room/in front of the TV/computer, but I certainly don't need to make sure he's cleared out of his own house for me to feel comfortable having a chat to my friend!

Re the op, I would explain to the woman that this is a bit of a struggle for you, re ushering hubby out of the house so she can visit. Just explain that as much as her not being comfortable around your husband, in your home, is an issue for her, that same request is a bit of an issue for you. So perhaps, then, best to meet on neutral territory.

Does your DH work from home? Is he always in?

I think you should respect her wishes just like you wouldn't cook a Jewish person pork if they visited. Surely there are plenty of times when DH is out you could arrange a play date?

Ok, I was just skating over the details, but if anyone's really interested in the nuances of Arab hospitality, I was just picking up that notadudeexactly seems to be oversimplifying things. My impression is that she seems to see the coffee thing as an act of subjugation, to be railed against, whereas it is more of a gesture of affection to visitors or older family members coupled with the fact that Arab women are generally homemakers and don't let men into their kitchens as a point of principle.

If we have visitors, DH is not sitting on his arse waiting to be served, he's doing his bit with serving food, finding cushions, ashtrays, argileh etc. And that's for the benefit of both sexes.

Besides, one of DHs friends makes better coffee than me, so he makes it in our house and serves me, does that make everyone happier?

Virgo.

Huffy? Really? And you're accusing the op of being patronising?

Besides I don't think was about serving coffee in itself but about the lack of reciprocity. If serving coffee isn't a big deal then what's the problem with men serving women coffee?

Op I think you should reverse it and ask yourself how you would feel if dh had friend over that couldn't be in same room as you. Best option is to meet somewhere neutral but I wouldn't kick poor old dh out.

MrsLadyWoman Yes. We either socialise as a couple, or we have friends of our own sex. Are you entirely comfortable talking about personal matters in front of your friends husbands? And would they be comfortable listening?

I have had female friends who have 'clingy' husbands or boyfriends who sit down like a spare part attached to their partner and contribute nothing - it's weird.

I'm not criticising anyone's preferences wilsonfrickett, I'm just pointing out that you can't say things like "how she can...settle if she's so locked into these norms" without sounding a bit patronising. I have never heard of anyone being so strict that they cannot enter a house with someone else's husband present. I think there has been something of a misunderstanding. Of course it is only polite for your partner to greet your guests. There, we diverge though - my DH is not a gossiper. You haven't said anything about how this lady dresses?

NotADudeExactly seems to have more traditional PIL than me. Mine find it entirely acceptable to have mixed company, conversation and dancing. Can't remember having to have a conversation about embroidery. Separate socialising doesn't usually happen simultaneously in our family. I don't get huffy about serving coffee either, I'm not treated like a servant.