anyone feel uncomfortable about Military Wives Choir?

Yes, I have noticed that. I got some really nasty comments once for posting that a friend was feeling seriously conflicted - it was all 'oh, he signed up, he knew what he was getting into, if he doesn't ahve the balls he should be ashamed, etc. etc.' And the poor lad was all of 18 when he started, it's not like most 18-year-olds can be expected to be completely level-headed.

I find it quite worrying atm that a mate of mine, whose job is recruiting for the army, is meant to assess how good at 'compartmentalizing' people are, as it is an essential skill. I'm sure it is, but it does seem terrifying to me (though obviously that is why I run screaming at the idea of a career in the military, but still ...).

lrd, it is interesting that the majority of mn people assume that 'the military' (one homogenous mass) are all in favour of any given conflict (after all, they are all bloodthirsty killers who joined up to kill people etc etc). there seems to be so little realisation that 'the military' are to a man and woman as unique as you or i. sure, the training kicks in and to some extent you do as you're told, but to hold a genuine belief that people aren't conflicted about this stuff seems surreal to me.

civilians are allowed to go home and moan about bad policy decisions in the office, but apparently the military never feel that way. weird. of course they do.

i had a very wise 'literature of war' tutor once, who was interested in that very dissociation between making the initial patriotic decision to join up (and essentially waive your right to have a moral judgement), and later internal conflict wrt specific tasks that you might be asked to perform.

the other students on the course could not grasp this at all. i put it down to them being very young undergrads, but i see the same thing on mn and elsewhere all the time. it's fascinating.

I'm sure the reality of being a military wife is every bit as ghastly as it is shown to be & then shitloads more.

You're right it is /was a PR excercise but with 2 good charities benefitting, so at least that's better than usual PR /TV set-ups I suppose.

Sorry, that was to BB at 21:33 ... I see what you're saying better after the other post.

Don't know if this has been said but maybe military wives is a good name for publicity. Very zeitgeist. Lots of money in the coffers. Am I being a bit judgemental?

I find it very dubious this assumption that all military wives must be the same, and that one thread that has some military wives saying they're not comfortable has to be put down as 'over thinking'. I can see why some people would want to be defined by their husband's career if it's a career that so affects their lives - but others would not like it.

I know you're saying it 'isn't for everyone', BB, but it seems like you're saying other people can't discuss it or why they found it upsetting/uncomfortable?

FWIW, I very much agree with the point about 'blitz spirit'. I posted on the AIBU thread about the choir about this, but I know quite a lot of people, men and women, who're in the military and several of them are really, really conflicted about the current situation and feel it was not why they joined up. Some of them have very strong idealism about British government and were really upset when we went into Iraq. I know this can be a contentious point but I'm sure they're not the only military people who feel that way - and I think it is that much harder for wives (and perhaps husbands?) who seem to be expected to have no moral scruples, or even, fewer moral scruples than the men who're serving.

i've had a fab time with the military. both as a serving member and as a wife. it's had it's low points, obv.

but i am under no illusions as to how it pans out through a feminist lens.

thank you for the gracious apology though. we x posted.

i haven't even seen the programme as you can't get it here.

no-one has suggested the choir is in any way demeaning, i don't think.

several people have expressed uncertainty about the title, but personally i see it as a nod to the pr exercise. if it wasn't for a specific event/ tv show, then it would almost certainly have just been 'chivenor choir' or whatever. ergo the 'military wives' thing was a choice, to be deliberately promoted as such for this particular cause.

and it's raising money.

my angst is entirely to do with the reality of being branded a 'military wife' rather than any pr-driven choir exercise.

apologies if that wasn't entirely clear.

Pizza I was not intending to patronise you or anyone, & I'm sorry you have taken it that way.

I'm also sorry that you have had such a negative time with the military, I'm not taking away from that one iota just commenting on the programme & the feelings & comments I've had from other MN-ers who are also Military.

Yes I have read the thread, I don't like posting without doing so.

I am aware they are adult women, they have a million & one things to do as every mum has. The difference was they found the choir an extra "something to do" that was totally different to anything they'd done before. They fitted it in around their eveyday lives. It took their minds off their OH's situation for a few moments, and many found/rediscovered a joy in singing that made them feel good. Many were new to the area/base and found it a great support to make new friends a bit more easily than they might have done.

It wasn't /isn't for everyone but I find it very sad that the fact that they DID get something out of it is seen as a demeaning thing, if you are suggesting I was being patronising then that is your interpretation.

The over-thinking remark was with regard to the groups title -I'm sure they discussed many options, it appeared so from the programme, but most were too "clunky" they were happy with that, obviously, being able to think for themselves.

with another control freak. we had a whale of a time comparing personal idiosyncracies. it started with a confession that she had made a fool of herself in public about three weeks ago and was still having a real problem getting over it. (despite the fact that no-one excpet her noticed, obv)

i neatly solved it by suggesting we draw up formal policies and mandatory training for what she was attempting to do when she made a fool of herself.

thus neatly solving her humiliation dilemma by foisting the blame onto someone else (an entire organisation in fact), and giving her something productive to with any leftover angst. she's going to start drafting the policy.

my work today is done.

[really must get a job emoticon]

at this rate i'll end up on babynames.

i'd quite like some help with all the associated crap i do have get done, sgm. but thanks for offer...

it would probably help if i got off mn, tbh.

lexi, yy re whole other politics thread.

it really isn't just the tory govt. this erosion has been going on for at least 15 years.
interesting point about need/ demand though.
i used to run a charity that provided out of school activities for children and youth with disabilities, because no after-school care/ opportunities existed. i was an unpaid volunteer. our 1-1 care-workers were unpaid volunteers. our board were all volunteers. we raised our own money and paid specialist instructors. no after-school clubs or care opportunities existed. (we actually set up as an organisation because the two week sn playscheme in the summer holidays was cut). children without disabilities had a raft of opportunities all summer long and every night.

i'm just sceptical about the lack of need thing, i think.

fwiw, although he didn't actually die in the end, i've been on the receiving end of the 'knock on the door'. he was given a 20% chance of survival. his med care was great (they saved his life ) but not one person, not one single solitary member of the military community, has ever spoken to me about it since the knock. presumably if he had died, the system would have kicked in and i would have been issued with a nice officer to walk me through everything. (i know i would. i know the system.)

being a military wife pervades every single aspect of your being, bossybritches. you can't escape it. ever. so please don't think to patronise me about my 'independence'.

'something to do'.

that's made my day, that has.

ha!

I'm sorry some of you feel so affronted, the program was made (as it seemed to me) purely to give the women something to do while their OH's were deployed, they enjoyed it & so it grew. No inferiority suggested, or felt.

There were GF's in the choir, but the WAGS label being attributed latterly to brainless bimbos who marry/live with footballers, they went for the Military Wives. (one lady had a DH AND a DS overseas)

It happened to be that no male OH were available or wanted to join,perhaps.

There were choir members from 2 main bases, Chivenor & Plymouth (which is far bigger) and far from gloss over the many losses, there was a frequent refrain that they were aware not all the men were coming back, that they all dreaded THAT visit & their thoughts were with the women who had suffered losses.

The whole point if then going on to do a single was to help the 2 big charities that support these very families, Gareth Malone has a grandfather who has been greatly helped by the RBL so he felt this a way of giving something back.

If anyone is uncomfortable with the term "Military Wives" then that is your problem, please don't infer these lovely ladies are anything less than independant strong women in their own right to choose to support their OH's.

I'm a feminist but I do think you can overthink things.

pizza I don't know but I guess more of the cover price is profit so as long as Decca. and the studio were only charging a flat rate not a percentage then yes it'll turn into pure profit.

How/why charities are becoming an increasingly important part of basic service delivery is probably a 'politics' thread in itself. I read the other day about a local council which had outsourced almost everything to a limited company based in its own building and employing almost all the same staff. "Saved money and improved service" BUT was presumably making a profit for someone in the chain. Agility of services is a major factor because (getting a bit back on topic) you could find that mental health, physical rehab, and such like are required in widely varying levels according to conflict involvement so setting up the public sector to provide everything at max required levels all the time is wasteful.

To answer OP-NO.

On the other hand, are there really still so few women in the military that not a single husband could be found? Or is it that even if you are a military husband, you're not defined by your wife's role? think you'll find that the majority of wives in the Military Choir are from a marine regt; meaning that women cannot serve with them - only alongside them. Not as infantry soldiers. Think I'm right in saying that - correct me if I'm wrong. DH (forces) seems to think that's why there are no DHs singing - it's because they're mostly marines.

is the vat going to the support charities then?

not really much difference in outcome then, really. better pr for the govt to donate 'vat' from sales than provide the support itself. much more sensible economically.

£83,332 - the approx VAT on 250,000 sales which I think the single had made as of yesterday.

ah, quod aren't you retrofitting your impression of the national mood there onto some things which are unrelated? the programme was started in February and from an idea that was sent to Gareth Malone by a forces wife somewhere in the UK

I doubt very much that the Forces had any influence on the programme and neither did the govt- if the producers/bbc had a 'mood' to sell that's a different matter but it's pretty far removed from the sort of machiavellian Tory plan to keep drip feeding the nation with blitz spirit stories so we tie our apron strings collectively and figuratively to the home fires and don't bother the job centres.

I could equally say that the lack (as I perceive it) of gardening programmes on TV is a big business conspiracy to keep us buying bland/processed/genetically modified/airfreighted food from the supermarkets.

I'm a civil servant in central govt and I promise you it is just not possible for us yo get our act together and push through a holistic plan like that. Politicians are opportunists - a good example is the announcement today that the Miliwives single won't have VAT. taken by the treasury. If this was a big plan they would have announced that a lot earlier, not when it's three days from being No.1 and somebody has realised that the VAT they'll get from 250k sales at 2£ a pop is a vote-loser