anyone feel uncomfortable about Military Wives Choir?

There's a variety of opinions on that, and most of them got discussed last year on this thread. Enjoy reading!

Doesn't the wife/spouse thing merely reflect their relationship to the cause they are raising money for, i.e. wounded soldiers? Therefore in the public conciousness there is an additional reason for people to put their hands in their pockets. It seems like a marketing ploy to me.

I understand the concerns about the roles of women in society, but this seems to be missing the point of this particular exercise - 'my husband and his colleagues are being wounded and frankly the government gives them f* all, so please buy our record.' FWIW I am happy that in our house we refer to ourselves as husband and wife - but then I guess I would be from my lofty position . I believe my wife likes it too.

Women being defined as wives is a concern of all feminists.

Not everyone on this thread agrees that this particular situation is a concern, because it is - like most human situations - a bit more complicated than that.

But the underlying question, how we might feel about women being defined as wives, is a core feminist question and it was perfectly sensible to have a debate about it.

Obviously, 'military spouses' would prompt a very similar debate, since it would tend to suggest the women are defined by the men they married.

I like discussion; I don't assume my opinion on this topic is default at all, but you simply dismissed a whole section of feminism, so I am explaining what is going on. By default, if you want everyone to shut up, and I want room to debate, I am not the one who is pushing her opinion over other people's.

I suppose they could have called themselves Military Spouses. Would that please everyone?

LRD - it is a concern of some feminists. A quick read through here would prove that some feminists think it is an over-reaction. You would be the first to agree that not all feminists agree on every issue, so to assume that yours is the default position is incorrect.

No, it doesnt' prove some people will be offended by anything.

We are discussing how a group of women identify themselves, and how we feel about it.

It may not interest you, but that's no reason to be rude about other people's perfectly legitimate concerns.

Women being identified primarily as wives is a fundamental and very basic concern of feminism - how can you possibly not notice that?

Oops, pressed too early. I also meant to say re your comment 'Not everyone likes being defined by the man they married' - if these women choose to be identified as a choir by this collective name, all it defines is the choir, not the individuals.

I will admit I didn't realise that this was old, or that it had 11 pages. I am sure my points will have been raised on previous pages. And LRD, re your newsflash - come on, you are better than that. All this thread proves is that some people will be offended by anything. I am out though.

I don't think it matters that this is an old thread. The situation and context has changed somewhat, with the longevity and expansion of military wives choirs, and also Gareth Malone's other projects.

This is a ghost thread.

namechange, don't be so daft. Not everyone likes being defined by the man they married - that's not remotely 'new', and you must be remarkably naive to think so.

Here's a tiny newsflash for you - women aren't necessarily all destined to be 'wives'.

Of course you are offended, FU. I would have fallen off my chair if you weren't.

I find it offensive. They are using a retrogressive dismissive sexual stereotype to define themselves (bit like a woman referring to herself as 'I'm such a blonde' or a 'fishwife') the media love this 'worthy excuse' to demean.

I think you have found something new and original to be offended by, and we all know that that isn't easy these days. Given that these women (sorry if calling them that is offensive to anyone) have gone out and done something for the benefit of others, what could they do to offend you less in future?

IMHO I think the use of the term 'military wives' is perjorative. What next 'bankers wives'?

These are all individual women not a homogenus group, who have no doubt come together from different perspectives in solidarity with each other to remind the people of this country that they exist. Singing is a positive activity, lifts the spirit and assists moral, creating a collective outcome in song.
Maybe uncomfortable from the perspective that the issue is wider as I feel it plays into the gingoism that somehow is needed to keep an 'up-side' to the war. I truly hope that these un-sung, now sung women are not being used just to produce tear jerking material for mass consumption but act as a serious reminder that those who live with the active service military pay a heavy price and live in constant states of anxiety.
Big respect to them.

I agree that the US military is no paradigm for that of the UK.

It might be better to start a new thread to discuss issues arising during deployment of the US military, rather than bolting it on to the end of one discussing what civilian women have done during the absence of their husbands.

Those that want to sing that aren't married to their partners are welcome to join the choirs as are serving military personnel, other family members of serving military personnel, former serving military personnel, wives and family members of former serving personnel, support workers employed within the choirs related military establishment

It's an illustration of what the military actually stands for. Institutionalised violence and woman-hating.

Interesting article but I'm not sure how it relates to the op and subsequent discussion. Why should the treatment of rape in the US forces (parlous at best if that article is accurate!) have any bearing on whether or not I choose to define myself as an Army Wife?

US Servicewomen in Iraq are more likely to be raped by their male colleagues than killed by enemy fire:

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military

One last thought - another reason I dislike the single is a very trivial and selfish one: my husband left for Afghanistan at the beginning of the month and three and half weeks into his tour I'm already wanting to thump the next person who asks if I'm going to join a choir to "...help me cope..." and "...give me something to do...".

I am coping very well, thank you very much and with three children aged 5 and under I have plenty to do.

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion but have been very interested in some of the views expressed by military wives on the thread. Do you think we really are that defined as "wife of"? I can't say that I've never come across that because you'd all laugh and know I was lying but most of the time that view came from the "old guard" - bufty old Colonels and the like.

My husband did a tour at RMAS and there, definitely, there was an old-fashioned attitude to wives. However, before we moved there we were told that RMAS was like the Army in the 50's and that we'd never change the system so it was best just to go along with it. While some of it did chafe, I did go along with it and it was one of our best postings. Outside of RMAS, I can't say that I've encountered much in the way of sexism and I've met many wives who would define themselves by all sorts of titles/descriptors - from doctors to soldiers to teachers and hairdressers and everything else you can think of. However, they would also always describe themselves as an Army wife. After all, being married to the military is an all-pervasive thing - you live beside the people that work with your husband and you socialise with them too. It's an incredibly insular and protected way of life, especially if you live behind the wire or on a patch.

I have to admit that my husband's Corps has a high proportion of women serving at all ranks and that does tend to help dispel the myths that women are only fit to be at home and breeding and it does mean that there are plenty of husbands kicking about.

I can't see why the title of the choir would make anyone go "Hmmm" but I am coming at it from a different perspective. Perhaps if you're outside looking in, it looks odd.

I don't particularly like the single because I find the lyrics mawkish and sentimental and I loathe all that sort of thing and hate the wearing of ones heart on ones sleeve. I do think they are worthy charities, however, and support them whenever I can. I don't like the idea that Military wives are being held up as some sort of standard of womanhood, though. The wives I know are a pretty diverse bunch from all walks of life and backgrounds and have a varied a mix of personalities as you would expect from any other group of women. Some are lovely people and there are some women that you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley - just like in civilian life. So, the idea that we're performing some kind of duty etc is a little unsettling. I don't want to be anyone's role model, ta very much!

Army life is fun at times and is hard at times. It can be difficult to be referred to as a dependent when one has to be very independent to succeed.

I would like to see a good independent study into Forces life although AFF does conduct the CAS every year and that can have quite a bit of influence.

Frozen North Pole's descriptions of life in the army certainly struck a chord with me!

Article really rather good, some of the comments made me want to scratch my eyes out.

I remember my first march-out. I was 8 months pregnant with DD1, and had spent the previous five days bending over trying to weed the enormous, overgrown garden. I could barely stay on my feet. We were billed for the garden anyway.

Yellow - I know they were given the chance to 'speak for themselves' but do you really think they could speak freely in a context which defined them entirely in terms of being object to someone else's subject? Military wives are left under no illusions about the importance of keeping up appearances.

To the pp who pointed out that the choir served as something to do during deployment, thank you for the biggest laugh I've had in weeks

I would absolutely love to do some research to find out more about the lived experience of 'wifedom' in the military. Perhaps some qualitative interviews looking at personal constructions of roles and limitations alongside quant data re: abuse, depression, divorce. As a research psychologist as well as an 'army wife' I think it would be rather good. The chance of the military letting something like that happen without interference or indeed happen at all? Small.

i would rather the song be by all those missing loved ones

a friend of mine partner has served in Afghanistan and she found the whole military wife thing very hard to deal with, she felt that was now her identity (especially as he is high ranking) even though she had has a very successful career that was overshadowed by her partner. they no longer live on a base as she didn't not fit into to what was expected of her

Interesting article, LRD.

I watched the series and I don't think it necessarily showed the wives in a sentimental light. They were given the chance to speak for themselves, and I think that's a really great thing. It is true that they didn't speak about some of the issues mentioned in that article and by some of the women on this thread.

I think it's a bit weird that they talk about the women being "pretty" in the Daily Mail - it wasn't as if they were all young and thin, it was nice to see women of all ages and shapes on TV. It was nice to see the soloist had tattoos and short hair, they could have easily picked someone who more readily fit the image that people have of military wives.

I did buy the single, incidentally, I think it's a lovely song and the charity is a very worthy one.