Pro-life / Pro-choice

If men gave birth, there would be no question about whose rights were more important - it would be the grown man's.

And it is women versus men, in that no-one would ever suggest, that men should be forced to undergo a life-threatening, life-changing event, against their will. It would simply be considered an abhorrent idea. Men's lives are far too valuable to entertain such an idea.

"Im sorry eleanor, but i cant see how this is aout the rights of men versus women. Its about the rights of women vs the unborn child or foetus"

Exactly.

The point is, Kristingle, that this is a decision a man will never have to face. He may have to support his partner in her decision or he may walk away entirely (my sisters father avoided her existence for years). Therefore if you make abortion illegal you are effectively punishing half the population for having sex. And since politically most modern governments are still for the most part run by men, I'm not sure how you could say that was not discriminatory?

Im sorry eleanor, but i cant see how this is aout the rights of men versus women. Its about the rights of women vs the unborn child or foetus. Half of whom are female. Surely thats what makes this such a complec issue

I might as well characterise it as the rights of female babies not to be aborted so their biological father do not have to pay to support them

Then you're a funny sort of feminist.

Anyone who believes that forcing a woman to go through the life-changing , life-threatening events of pregnancy and childbirth against her will, doesn't really value women that much. And if you don't value women's lives and think they are as precious and valuable as those of men, it's a funny sort of feminism you're espousing.

I believe the right of the foetus to life is more important than the womans right to have control over her body.

I haven't read the whole thread but I would consider myself to be a feminist and also anti abortion. I would definitely like the limit for abortion to be brought down.

I totally agree with you holy.

If society wasn't obsessed with PIV and men took more responsibility for their sperm and exhibited less entitlement to putting their penises in women, abortion issues would be very different.

Interesting Holey. I wonder what would happen if every woman who was forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term deposited the resulting child on the doorstep of the sperm donor to care for.

the comedian chelsea handler has made several references to her abortion(s?) on her chat show - joking comments like "i've never gone through with any of my pregnancies". the first time it really jarred, but also made me wonder why it made me so uncomfortable - and why there is such an investment in the idea that "it's never an easy decision" for women.

the end result is the same whether the woman weeps and wails for years, or whether she views it as equivalent to getting a filling at the dentist - so does it matter? should a woman be judged more harshly if she has no doubts about her abortion?

personally i've moved on from my original (more equivocal) viewpoint towards one where abortion should be available on demand - certainly prior to 12 weeks.

Oh go on, post it anyway

LRD - loving, really loving your work today.

differentname, I can see where you're coming from - I'm just not sure that this is fact a universal experience.

I felt at ease about my abortion, as much as one can be at ease about having a bunch of strangers perform a routine but of course still potentially risky medical procedure on one's body. The one and only issue I had was that I knew even then that I did want to have children. Someday, not as an undergraduate and while also holding down a full-time job to support myself. This one point of insecurity was born entirely out of my own fear of rejection and my questioning whether it would be "bad" to say yes to my future children but no to this one.

As for the bodily integrity argument: the vital thing to remember here is that in absolutely no other situation does our society mandate the violation of the right to self-determination in order to guarantee another's survival. Organ donation is voluntary - even if your life has ended and have no more use for your stuff. Even if your behaviour directly caused another person's need for a transplant and you happen to be both a perfect match and dead, your wish to be buried with your liver intact takes precedence over that of the other person to remain alive according to our laws.

We can argue whether or not this is morally acceptable (I'm not necessarily an advocate of corpse rights). But until our general attitude changes or we find an alternative to female pregnancy, the singling out of pregnant women cannot be defended as being anything other than gender based discrimination.

KristinaM

I was unwanted too. But the difference is/was my mother raised me for 18 yrs & destroyed any self esteem I ever had by telling me she never wanted me, never loved me, no one else would love me, no one else would be able to even like me.

She didn't have the option of adopting me out as my father wanted me, and until he left when I was 5, things as I remember were OK.

We haven't spoken since I left home at 18.

What makes you think that?

Because I have been there, and while I know I made the right choice & the only choice, actually having to do it wasn't the easy choice at all.

It was easy to make it, but not easy to have to do it, if that makes sense.

I am not tryimg to argue anything from my own experince. Data is not the plural of anecdote. But i wanted to share a little of it

I know that Elfenor - but I was deliberately minimising it because even at its most minimal the principle holds.

Actually it's not the life of one vs the convenience of another.

Pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous. I know of 2 women who died in childbirth. And sometimes, women are left permanently injured by giving birth or emotionally traumatised to the point where tehy have PTSD.

Those risks can't be dismissed as mere inconvenience.

Ah thanks blackcurrants.

beach Is this one of those threads in which a bloke exhibits his inability to grasp the concept of bodily autonomy as a woman's right?

Yes, pretty much. Either that or the OP is trying to stir up a fight, having pretty much said "I'm not going to elaborate on what I think, I want to see you all dance for me! MEAHAHAHAHAH!"

I'm pro-choice. My body, I get to say who I share it with.

I am definately against abortion.

But i am definately pro-choice. It's not very straight forward in my head really. I have no idea about statistics but i'm sure a significant proportion of terminations are fairly simple (not easy) decisions that are looked back on as necessary to the women who had them.

However i think there is also a large proportion who feel they made a terrible mistake afterwards and had no idea how they would feel as a result of the abortion. The emotional pain i felt and still feel after mine is something i will never come to terms with. I have merely tried to compartmentalise.

I don't judge anyone regarding their experiences/opinions. All i would say is that it really is one of those subjects that you need to have experienced (either to do it or not do it) in order to truly know the heartbreak (or maybe the relief?).

Don't know if i'm making much sense. Its a very touchy subject that i'm not used to discussing.

There are however plenty of adopted children whom are unhappy some of whom wish they had never been born. There are plenty of mothers who continued the pregnancy but were unsure who went on to succeed or fail as parents with offspring with equally diverse experiences and perceptions.

Individual experience is almost irrelevant there are too many. It's all about the principle and the horrors women suffer in countries when they can't control their fertility and pregnancy speak eloquently about why women must decide this issue personally with a full range of options. There is no baby, there is a dependent foetus. It cannot be prioritized at the expense of any woman.