Pro-life / Pro-choice

Peppapig, yes, that is what I'm saying. I'm not arguing for it I'm just trying to work out if that is what is being argued.

I don't know how I feel about the idea because it is going into a difficult area of medical ethics - that of the distress caused by intrusive medical treatments on babies born very early, and the conflict that can arise between people who want offspring to live, and doctors who don't want to cause distress and suffering just because medical technology has advanced.

Superduperdiva Yes, I strongly agree.

i didnt take the choice away. they did.

blackcurrent one word. adoption.

why would i advise them that. i would advise that if you take the risk you must face the consequences. not palm them off onto a defenceless child.

I'm sure milly and superduper are saying the same thing?!

That you can't abort a foetus after 24 weeks, but could posssibly induce birth and not kill, if the only reason for the abortion was the risk to the life of the mother?

I don't agree with this, by the way, I'm just trying to work out the argument!

Super You 'bet' ? you bet ? you're willing to bet on another woman's life and another child's life?
Thank goodness you can't take how YOU feel and say: this is how everyone must feel! Have you no empathy?

I may think "oh, we'll find the room and resources for another baby, even if unplanned" but to make another woman go through a pregnancy she doesn't want, to give birth to a child she doesn't want, is a hideous violation of her bodily integrity, and shows an appalling arrogance, and lack of regard for her human worth. The majority of women who have abortions are already mothers, who are making a choice about the size and happiness and, let's face it, financial strength of their families. Who are you to take that choice away from them?

I have MC at 22, 7 and 9 weeks, and I am a scrub nurse, so have seen terminations. They all appear very different. They don't look like a clump of cells, no more than I look like a clump of cells. They look like small foetus. I have never had a heavy period that looked like a small foetus.

Superdiva I hope you advise men not to have penetrative sex unless it's for procreative purposes, as you're so against abortion.

I think that's an important message for your campaign to get out.

still not sure what you mean!! sorry

I'm referring to the point about saving women's lives when the baby is over 24 weeks. I may be missing the point.

clump of cells

oh dear

oh dear

oh dear

I think whether a foetus can survive independently of the mother is a very dangerous basis for any abortion law. What happens when in, say, 15 years time, a foetus of 8 weeks can be saved by surviving in some sort of womb-like tank? Should the mother be prevented from having an abortion because the remaining gestation can be in some sort of incubator?

sorry no idea what you mean milly

recall: but as I said, most abortions in this country happen in the first trimester, because most women who are pregnant and don't want to be pregnant, want to stop being pregnant as quickly as possible.

Therefore an abortion at 8 weeks would look just like a miscarriage at 8 weeks, right? I mean, it's the same clump of cells coming out.

Do you mean that birth should be induced at 24 weeks and then treated as a baby in a special care baby unit?

unwanted child my arse. i bet 99% of those children wouldnt be unwanted the moment their mothers laid eyes on them.

Blackurants a terminated foetus looks different to an 8 week MC, I have seen both. It is different to a very heavy period.

and if the response is it can survive independently then you cant agree with aborting due to risk to the mothers life AFTER 24 weeks.

And yes, in an ideal world there would be no unwanted pregnancies -we can definitely agree on that!

I just want to add: in an ideal world there would be no unwanted children. People who are anti-choice want to turn an unwanted pregnancy into an unwanted child.

The poor child!

agree peppa totally agree.

if you are pro-choice you must agree with aborting up until birth. what is the difference to you?

I know what a miscarriage looks like at eight weeks, so I imagine an abortion at that time would look the same. It looks like a very heavy period.

The majority of abortions happen in the first trimester. What's your point?

The problem I think we have is that you think if those of us who are for safe, legal access to safe, legal abortion just knew more about abortion, we would change our positions. But - we do know! We think women have a right to decide whether or not to be pregnant and give birth. We think women's lives matter. And we (in general) don't confuse a foetus with a baby.

I have a couple of friends (very educated, high fliers etc, young, pro-choice) who i showed my 12 wk scan to.

"it has fingers??!! at twelve weeks " ???!!!!!

and you are pro-choice?!!! riiiiiiight.

I think that if abortion is lawful at all, then it has to be lawful in all circumstances and on demand. To require there to be a "reason" brings a moral judgement into the equation. It is either OK or not OK to abort a foetus.

Personally, I am pro-choice, but I do think it is consistent with feminism to be pro-life, provided you are pro-life in all circumstances, with possibly the exception of real and imminent risk to the life of the mother (i.e. mortality, not just a mental health risk etc).