Pro-life / Pro-choice

I am pro-choice. Not really for the "it's my body" reason, but something similar. Each woman, each pregnancy, each family and social circumstance is unique. Given the endless list of complicating factors, the ONLY one who can make the decision to terminate or not is the woman involved. Not me. Not you. Pro-choice, in my mind, is the only logical course of action for the state.

chocablock

I don't even know why I am replying to you...but I go to bed & live with a clear conscience because I did what was best for my existing children. I truly believe that if I didn't have access to a safe termination, I would have killed myself (I had thoughts of crashing my car as it was, just to get it all over with)

I am not sorry that I feel no guilt. I am not sorry I did it. My dds have a parent that can give her all to them. Had I have had the baby, I cannot guarantee that I wouldn't have been very messed up. As it was, for the long 5 weeks before my termination, I was a mental wreck.

If you believe that women should be made to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, you are the one who should be struggling with YOUR conscience.

I am pro-choice, mainly for the "it's my body" reasons discussed by many. But I also recognise that deciding to have an abortion is not just about avoiding the pregnancy and birth, but also about deciding not to create a child at that point.

Some posters have brought up an interesting medical ethics question that I can't get my head around though.... The implications (in future) if technology reaches a point where the foetus can be removed from a woman's body at an early stage and gestated elsewhere... and either adopted, or brought up by bio-dad if he didn't want to give it up...?

How would this change things re: arguments about "the right to life" and about who's decision the fate of the unwanted foetus is?

Women, counselling, abortion. For me this means that the 'poor wee women' can't think for themselves and need help in making up their mind.

If a woman decides not to proceed with the pregnancy then that's her choice.

chocablock, I'm not going to click on that link.

While I hate to think of babies being killed before birth I understand there are women for whom it is the lesser of two evils. Such women need support, not have their heads messed with and their hearts torn anymore than they already are.

So, by that arguement, chockablock, is an egg a chicken?

chocablock - please don't post this link all over mumsnet - especially on places like the other thread where someone is discussing the practicalities of having an abortion.

You clearly have nothing to add from a feminist perspective. I suggest you start an OP somewhere else instead of crashing onto threads with your "pro life song and video" clip.

Watch this video with facts on abortion. I just cannot understand how ANYONE can agree with killing unborn babies. It goes beyond arguments, you have heard all the arguments...but how anyone can go to sleep at night with their conscience clear after having encouraged or participated in child murder is beyond me. And don't tell me it is not a child - the heart starts beating at 18 days after conception...

Odd drunken quotations are very seasonal.

Yeah I know you meant that lrd...me too although I see I quoted you most oddly drunkenly ahem.

And again yup I agree:)

transverse - thanks. And sorry, I need to clarify: I don't think women shouldn't matter! I think they should be central. And I do know we have it so much better here than many other countries. But I still truly believe there is cavalier and patronizing attitude from 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' people in this country, towards women.

I think the fact that abortion is generally less traumatic than adoption or an unwanted pregnancy (something I fully believe btw), has allowed some people to conclude it is not really important to provide good treatment of women trying to choose their options or undergoing this procedure.

I think that, as so often, the underlying belief is that women are not really that important, and should be grateful for a piss poor system.

What we need is an approach that teaches both men and women to respect women's bodies and women's potential to become pregnant. We need to bring girls up to know that they are supported and valued. I think if we could do this, the number of unwanted pregnancies would drop hugely.

Yes, the backsliders. St.Augustine must be turning in his grave.

Elf - even the catholic church has given in and "allows" sex for the strengthening of the bonds of marriage as opposed to just procreation...

Thanks for that link blackcurrants, have not read that piece before and found it very moving especially as another birth mother who although fine with her choices sees adoption as a something very far from an easy option. I find poeple who suggest it have no compassion for the birth mother, I would certainly never suggest it to another woman.

I feel like I've taken a step backwards to the 1950s

Some of you appear to believe that married couples should never have penetrative sex, unless they want a baby. I look forward to seeing you on the next thread where a woman says her husband is sulking about not having enough sex, advising that unless they're TTC, he's being unreasonable because there's no other sort of sex that's valid anyway.

It's very telling that no-one has answered the question about whether men should definitely never have penetatrive sex, unless they're prepared to become fathers. I expect that there'll be some kind of shit about seeing that he's not the one that's left with the problemm of having an embryo in his body, it's irrelevant for men and they can't be expected to worry about such things and women should just put up with being penetrated if they live with a man and he wants it, whether they want a baby or not, because it's women's problem, not men's. And such explanations, dear fellow-posters, are merely cover for woman-hatred.

Or what differentnameforthis said

But why reduce sex to something that is solely there for reproductive purposes? Even without contraception, most sex does not lead to pregnancy. Does that mean people who never want children can never have sex? What... erm... fun? And are people not allowed to change their minds post-sex, even if we ruled that sex was only allowed in attempts to conceive?

Also, it is no one's business as to why someone has an abortion. If we start deliberating over why someone has an abortion, we go a long way tlo restricting the god damn service. To me, it is better that a woman who requires a termination for whatever reason is able to access one, rather than every woman is made to jump through hoops to get one, possibly divulging painful information to get one.

so if you REALLY don't want a baby why have... penetrative sex?

So women should only have sex if they want a baby? So now we are no more than incubators.

Nice.

I'm not strongly either way on this topic as I sympathise with both 'sides' of the argument when someone has an unwanted pregnancy (I know several people who have had abortions)but I always find it odd that our choice as to whether or not we have sex doesn't get mentioned much in the 'choice' debate in our society. No contraception is 100%, so if you REALLY don't want a baby (so much that you would have one sucked out of your womb when you are asleep)why have penetrative sex? Some of the friends I know who had abortions (some more than one) almost treated it casually, like another form of contraception. Lots of situations where really good reasons for a woman not to proceed with a pregnany but I know from my own circles, its not always the case.

because black the woman made the choice to have sex/not use contraception/took the risk

suoerduperdiva

You do realise that not all pregnancies come about by not using contraception, don't you? That EVERY single method of contraception fails, you know that right? So your statement I copied is bullcrap! Because you are assuming that all pregnancies, wanted & unwanted are because a woman choose to have unprotected sex. And you assume wrong. I got pregnant after 2 methods failed. Mini pill & condom. And no, I didn't have it. I cannot bring an unwanted child into this world.

And advocating using a baby as punishment for having sex is awful & barbaric.

As an unwanted child (my father's vasectomy failed) who was raised by the parent who didn't want her, you have NO idea how harmful your views are. I live with the legacy that I was unloved & unwanted (& I felt it very keenly, almost daily, until I left home at 18 & stopped talking to my mother) If you want to know what effect that has had on my life, I will happily tell you, but I get the feeling that you couldn't give a shit about what legacy lies before a woman & her unwanted baby,....as long as she is forced to have it for daring to have sex! Let's wreak as many lives as we can, hey!

Loving your work on this thread generally lrd.

Absolutely though when you say, 'it's very simple and you don't matter at all.' The woman has to be central ... A brief look at countries where law relegates them to secondary citizens evidences this amply.

Research shows clearly that abortion is less traumatic for women than other options, that's not to negate any individual's response to their own abortion.

Adoption as an answer to unwanted pregnancy? sure in countries without accessible abortion, with religious or cultural constraints but not routinely in a country that legally enshrines the rights of women.

I find the lack if compassion in people who suggest this startling, it doesn't matter whether they are judging a woman pregnant after consensual sex, contraception failure, non consensual sex...

I'm a bit late to this - but IMO adoption is rarely a simple solution - but also often not presented as an option at all.

I can well believe how traumatic for the birth mother it could be.

Having said, when I had an abortion when I was 18, I was the one asking my GP about adoption, and both he and my then boyfriend (who was there with me and the GP the whole time) strongly argued against it. I was made to feel that the option really wasn't there, and certainly not if my boyfriend disagreed. I was encouraged to feel that my boyfriend's decision (or rather, veto of my decisions) was just as important as my own feelings, and that both keeping the baby and adoption were not allowed.

I am very strongly pro-choice, but if we are going to have abortions available we need them to be presented as a proper choice - not something you're either persuaded out of or hounded into. I'm sure there are many women who were persuaded to have babies they didn't want in my situation, though.

IMO it's not really about whether these people agree with abortion or don't - on both sides of the aisle you can find an attitude towards pregnant women that boils down to 'it's very simple, and you don't matter at all'.

We need to get rid of that attitude.

adoption is not always the answer in every circumstance (although i have known many positive outcomes)

And i'm pro choice.

If abortion had been more easily available when i was born then quite possibly my bio Mother would have had an abortion.

That would have been her right.

Obviously i'm rather glad she didn't but i wouldn't have known anything about it.

It's too easy to blame and judge other people when you've never been in their shoes.