Shocking, stunning, horrifying, unmissable. Guardian report on female invisibility.

I have often found myself on mumsnet a few time reading Xenia's posts and taking large nuggets of wisdom from them.

I totally agree with making your own success. I was in investment banking and have switched to accounting (audit) with the aim of carving out a career either in internal audit or starting up my own business.

Right now DH is studying for an MBA, I am going for my CPA and we are both working full time with a 5 months old DD. It isn't easy and I was furious when I overheard a senior manager say they didn't want me on a job because they couldn't rely on me. I nearly blew a fuse as I am reliable and then remembered that the other women in the office who have small children are not reliable. If their child is sick they don't have emergency cover so take time off work. If you want a successful career you just can't get away with an attitude to work like that. Our closest family is 3000 miles away so I have a roster of sitters that I can call on in an emergency. I also have a sitter to come in during evenings and Saturdays as DH has to study and I am working.

I am one of those women who has a higher earning DH. It hasn't stopped me from calling him a lazy ass to his face when I see he hasn't done anything around the house. I do 99% of the housework because if he is home he is studying or looking after our DD while I do the housework. I think DH has benefited from me working. I talk to him about the discrimination I face in my job and it has changed his perception of women at work. He is mentoring two female sales managers in HQ. They are the first female sales managers in the history of the company and he reached out to them after I suggested that they might need a little bit of guidance and someone more senior to help them navigate through the all male customers and workplace.

It isn't easy when you move to another country. Kickassangel pm me and I will try to help you out. I am in public accounting so have contacts accross many different industries and areas. If I can't help you myself I will probably know someone who can. Also, look at your local town. When I was unemployed I volunteered my services to our town. I am now the 'main street champion' and offer free financial advice to small businesses looking to expand or open up.

One other thing, childcare is a huge issue in the UK. Here in the US we get a lot of tax breaks to help with the cost of childcare. It makes a huge difference and I see many more women in prominent positions compared to the UK. Rather than fight for 30% of boards to be made up of women I would prefer to see childcare being 100% deductible if both parents are working. If we lived in the UK I couldn't afford to work as salaries are so much lower and costs so much higher.

Spain changed all its aristocrats' rules so that oldest girls get all but it didn't matter too much as none of them have much money or estates. The UK is very different. Obviously most of us want no sex discrimination but I think it will be set out in inidividual trusts. I am not a debretts expert though and much harder to change here.

The issue that if you are older you inherit is not very fair either although at least it's not sexist. it has meant our estates stay whole whch is rather nice rather than owned by 20 warring children each entitled to a 20th as can happen in France.

That does not affect most of us but Cameron is to be applauded at least for dealing with the succession to the throne issue.

As a capitalist feminist and free market libertarian I have nothing against inherited wealth at all. It is no different from my inherited looks or IQ or whatever. We are not identical clones. Woudl be a dull world if we were.

Very well put, kickassangel.

I don't know whether these man-friendly rules are enshrined in law or just in individual families entailments etc. Have other families got rid of these ridiculous rules? Of course, even better would be to get rid of the BLOODY hereditary peers in the first place.

Going back to the comment about the house of lords

WTF???

because MORE people are affected by the discrimination of the inheritance laws, it's not worth changing??

The fact that it affects not just the females of those families, but means that the entire political system of the UK is skewed makes it OK????

I am close to combusting over this.

Apparently the reason Sweden has good childcare and men as well as women take chid-related leave is because Swedish women used a financial crisis as the time to campaign for social change. They had their banking crisis a few years ago and reacted by saying, right, the way the country and economy has been run hasn't worked, what kind of society do we want now and in future? Wish that was happening here...

Interesting and considered reply Xenia. Thanks for that.

In a free market if someone doesn't offer the women MBAs without the potential what they want they leave and found better firms and indeed they do. More women than men under 40 are millionaires in the UK - okay some have made that by lying on their back in marriage to a rich man and doing very little except divorcing him at an opportune time when they have snagged him with babies, but some will have earned it under their own steam as it were.

I don't like assumptions that women want to bake cakes nad leave at 3. Most adults are pretty lazy and would like to go home and bake the cakes, not just women and some women are very sexist and don't give them rman the chance to work part tiem whilst they work full time. When we make it a gender issue we make things even tougher for women who do want those board roles and like that hard work.

On this. "However, please tell me that life has thrown some REAL googlies at you - that you have, let's say, overcome devastating bereavement or marital breakdown, divorce, domestic abuse or abandonment leading to episodes of depression? Did you fight back to recover from a toxic or dysfunctional family background that could otherwise have done a sterling job of buggering up your potential?"

I accept not all of us are dealt an unequal hand. Best of all I have so far always been healthy. Secondly happy. Those two uber alles count for most.

The good fairy at my birth also bestowed unto me a high IQ and I am quite pretty (or think I am which may be just as important). That's a pretty good deal.

I don't think I would write about my family here. I am not sure my childhood was textbook happy home and one reason I went to university at 17 was because of that. In fact the richest people in the uK who make their own money are those who tended to have had some problems as children.

Bereavement - eek, well my 40s has been steeped in the decline, dementia and deaths of both parents but that came about after I had worked for 20 years so we may not count that. Divoce and abuse, yes probably and also single mother of 5. But despite all that, laughing as I type, i still feel happy.

Is it just some of us are copers? The British Empire was founded on women and men like this. Whatever is thrown at you you cope with it, you manage, you make th ebest of it and that robustness which most people dont' have I seem to have and I am lucky for it. I have done a little bit of life coaching and that is one of the issues we have looked at.

"Across the globe, however, it is obvious that workplace flexibility is not sufficient to move women into higher levels of management; the danger is that higher utilization rates for flexibility by women can reinforce the ?mummy track,? and derail career progression. As long as women are working flexibly to manage their dual roles, while men are still focusing on a single role, the playing field is not level. Incentives to encourage men to take leave and access flexibility have proven helpful in breaking down the cultural barriers that keep them at work and women at home.

If women are the ?canaries in the coal mine? of the traditional workplace, what does that mean? The canaries aren?t just warning that the mine is a bad place for birds; they are just the first ones to indicate that something is very wrong in the mine, which needs to be addressed. Women are harbingers that the ?mine? is no longer a productive, effective workplace for today?s workforce and today?s families."

This is interesting. It seems to argue that in a study of MBA graduates, women are paid based on their PERFORMANCE whilst men are paid based on their POTENTIAL.

"This study busts the myth that ?Women don?t ask.? In fact, they do! But it doesn?t get them very far. Men, by contrast, don?t have to ask. What?s wrong with this picture?"

My employer has signed this charter. I think they do make efforts - but can't find any record of how far they have run with this. We have a Diversity policy.

Xenia you are very lucky to have found your 'calling' - ie a profession which you clearly adore, which is, fortunately for you, hugely paid and which you have been well educated enough - and bright enough - to pursue with such financial and emotional success.

However, please tell me that life has thrown some REAL googlies at you - that you have, let's say, overcome devastating bereavement or marital breakdown, divorce, domestic abuse or abandonment leading to episodes of depression?

Did you fight back to recover from a toxic or dysfunctional family background that could otherwise have done a sterling job of buggering up your potential?

It just sounds to me as though you are an incredible woman, certainly, who has made it through hard work and passion for your calling, certainly, but (and I do not for one moment minimise any life problems you must have had - we all have them in our lives) you have not had to endure some of the real shit that a lot of women left holding the baby face and - by being left holding the baby or babies - simply cannot continue to pursue a job in Morrisons (actually there is a massive waiting list even for these where I live) let alone their previous career, if they had one, because they are either too hideously traumatised, depressed, left with no support by their feckless partners and to top it all, totally looked down upon by a society that is already pretty sadistic towards women.

Enjoying the thread. Working in an office with no women on the board. I did complain at the recent reshuffle but I don't expect any changes soon. Pleased my Dsis works at a company with 50% women on the board.

Most people fail. Most don't earn much. A few will earn a lot often because they do love what they do (I do). Any successful person from a footballer to top actor will put their all into their work. It's jsut how it is. Now I can earn in an hour the week's minimum wage. I could therefore choose to work one hour a week and cut my cloth accordingly etc etc but I love the work. I do work for myself however so may be that changes how you feel about it and I decide. Money gives you power and control if you are the boss. So you determine when and if you work.

Eg my daughters have had to ask for time to go on our family skiing holiday from work. (Luckly they can) That's fine they are at that stage. I don't ask anyone but of course I work around it and if there's something interesting and well paid to spend an hour on whilst I am away I may well do that and wiould probably enjoy it as much as an hour skiing. In other words there is no awful horrible thing called work I do and a wonderful thing called mopping the floor or stacking the dishwasher which I cannot wait to spend my time on. Nor woudl I rank an hour with the children or an hour singing over an hour of work (if it's a good bit of work). They are equal. I would probably put good sex above it all though and indeed the many hours I have spent very close to small babies at night breastfeeding.

On the question of culture I work for myself. I can make my own culture. Other women can too. there is nothing special about me. Others could do it if they want. Most don't want, that's the thing. I have yet to understand why anyone would want on a daily basis to do the wretched end of day school run etc. Children are tired then and not at their best and it's a load of driving and boring stuff. Occasionally it's nice to do but not day in day out. That just shows I am different from some mnen or women who feel they are having their heart cut out if they aren't at the school gates every day at 3.

i agree about technology. Look we will only change cultures if you hate the culture in a firm or company if you get yourself into the position of senior director/partner with a heap of other people who share your desire for that culture change. You will never get it by going on to the mommy track. Hoever you can set up yourself with a different ethos.

It is actually tremendously wonderful that most men and women are not that hard working, don't show up (as Woody Allen said) and aren't very interested in their work. It makes it much easier for women and men who are to get ahead. Let's go for it.

I have had my 29 years of working life most with children around. the next 20 years will be even easier as not many demands from children (am in my late 40s... well very very very late 40s but still, just) and much more scope to do work and hobby things. 50s is going to be lovely. I go think I have often compromised work and children as many men and women do. On a daily basis we decide how things shoudl be done. Life isn't fair. life can be very hard and those of us in well paid careers are very lucky no matter how hard balancing work and home is. If we were on the minimum wage it is a very different ball game.

Portf, I think things are much better if women can earn a lot. I don't really go after uptopios though as they never exist. People can move to Holland, they are good English speakers there and sometimes I've worked there or other places with very high taxes, very cheap child care and little difference in income between poor and rich. We don't all want that so we cleave to this wonderful motherland which we have here in the UK, lucky us.

it is no more a utopia that you get to be home for 5 from work to spend 4 hours dealing with child sick than that you get home 2 nights a week at 9 on days when soemone else has dealt with the sick.

Oh yes, 1/5 is just TERRIFIC, anonymous source.

To give him his due, quite a lot of Lords are partially sighted.

In fact, said anonymous source can have my first

According to 'a [male] government source in the Lords', "on the front benches of both the government and the opposition, women are very well represented".

Link

Aye. Right.

Pantofino - exactly. I'm actually in a very similar situation to Kerala above - corporate lawyer currently on maternity leave with my first. I understand Xenia's point of view on this, but coming from a profession where the hours can be awful, I can't help but feel that most of the women who have shattered the glass ceiling have done so by adopting the same work ethic as men. This ethic, being focused on quantity of hours worked rather than quality of work product, allows no acccomodation for a life outside work whatsoever. It caters to a monomaniac, almost sociopathic sensibility where all that matters is work. Many, maybe most, women and quite a few men see that this is damaging - for health, for companies and, above all, for the families of those who pursue this lifestyle, but seemingly this is the only way to get ahead. Certainly I don't see any option at my firm whereby I could continue doing interesting work without also putting in crippling hours and outsourcing almost the entirety of my child's upbringing, something I am reluctant to do.

Of course women should not be attempting to do it all, and should enlist help so they can pursue their careers and reach their true potential. The tragedy is that modern technology could (and should) make the vast majority of senior jobs far more flexible and accommodating to the needs of those who would rather not spend their whole lives in the office to the detriment of their health and close relationships, and could (should) free up far more time for families to be together. Instead, it has been used as an electronic ball and chain to tether us to the office even when we're out of it.

We should no longer be aspiring simply to do the jobs men do, we should insist on positive changes to those jobs which would make them better for all and not just monomaniac drones who are happy to spend far more time working than with their families.

4/5ths....

I don't get this argument that things have "improved" when women earn all the money and the men stay home as they are the lower earners - that is swapping one "bad" for another.....

Surely there should be more of a focus on making employment more flexible for all, making a decent work life balance for available for everyone. I work for a large company in Belgium. The place is deserted by 5.30 and I see male colleagues taking parental leave/working 4/ths and taking sabbaticals as well as female ones. The culture of "Presenteeism" is a huge obstacle to flexible working. And it's a social construct. It doesn't NEED to be there.

midori is right though, 4 in 5 women earn less than their man and most women marry up and prefer it and most men marry down. Now that is not always so. perhaps I earn what I do in my 40s because I didn't and I not knowingly followed Germaine G's suggestion mentioned above. If you earn 10x your other half as I ultimately did then you dont' end end up doing dull stuff at home, you get a balanced life with children and work and high pay. It's much more fun.

If I did not tolerate sexism in the 80s (indeed before we married he said if one of us had to give up work if the nanny situation did not work out it would be he which was fine for both of us but never had to come to pass, we both worked full time) then in 2011 other men and women don't have to either.

As ER says don't take the lion's share of housework. Lots of women don't. The first time sunny Jim on an early date or first few sleepovers suggests you cook and he doesn't or you iron the shirt you make it very clear that's not how it operates on planet you.

Point above above about payrises. If you think yiou aren't valued and cannot ask for one vote with your feet. Set up your own entrprise, out earn your boss. That kind of thing is hugely enjoyable for many women.

Some women whinge a lot and take no action (and men for that matter). Act not moan is often the better way.

hmm, I think that the health point is one not to be underestimated.

i work pt (but significant hours, and aiming for ft asap), because I gave up my job to follow dh's.
before that I was working ft. after having dd, I was just chronically ill. not acutely, but just all the time. I was exhausted. my body did not cope well with pregnancy/childbirth at all.

you just can't be signed off work for a couple of weeks here & there, then get yourself a promotion/payrise. every time i try to push myself to do more - i get ill. whether that's work more, or go out more, or just go to the gym etc. there's a certain amount i can do, then I start getting mild coughs/colds/stomach bugs. ignore it, and it gets worse etc.

I wonder how many other women find that having a child (or children) does this to them? it's not a life event that men ever go through, so will never affect their stats. although i don't think women should have to take time off when they have kids, i do think that for a certain proportion of them, probably need to.

For me, we had a load of fertility treatment, then an awful pregnancy, then I was ill for the next few years. Basically, having dd knocked 5 years out of my career. When dh was offered a job in the US, I gave up my work, and moved. I am now re-starting my career from the ground up.

And I have good qualification, love my job, enjoy the hours, and am good at it. there is a career structure to follow. if i was in a lower paid, 'job' rather than a career, would i bother with all the stress of working? probably not.

so, xenia's exhortations that we should all get out there, aim high & work hard are kind of correct - but they just don't allow for the ways in which people can be held back, not by their own mental blocks, but other things.

And we can't ALL be in high-flying careers. Someone has to care for kids/sweep the streets etc. How should we fix that?

God, I can spell, really.

Just want to say I actually agree with Porca's comments entirely. To add to that my DH very much wants name to stay in my highly paud job because if the money. I'd love to give it up fir a few years while DCs are young but am somewhat a victim of my own success. That said, to Porca's point, I could be exponentially more successful if I was willing to work long hours and travel.

Quis, There are many, many women on £50K plus who would rather scratch out their own eyeballs than marry some nice chap with rubbish prospects earning tuppence ha-penny.

interesting point midoriway.
but if you do pair up with a cheerful poor chap DON'T MARRY HIM !