Shocking, stunning, horrifying, unmissable. Guardian report on female invisibility.

sorry the ..was not missing your point about comp, or making a point about convent - more about the going to an all-girls'-school-thing and only being taught cooking and sewing.

Have just bought a jigsaw as am trying to better myself and my son's life by doing up furniture, but am terrified of it.

I went to an all-girls convent too. It gave me a lot of confidence and I was very happy there.

But IME men generally hate girls like us - both at work and in relationships; we seem to be a threat to their wondrous masculinity and sense of fairness (warped) and they make life as difficult as they can without appearing to do so deliberately. We fight like cats but unless we are incredibly strong we get screwed over anyway.

But this is not a thread about that.

kickassangel I went to an all girls comp. there was no woodwork, no metalwork, there was a bit of cooking but not for me - I was kicked out of cookery the very first lesson, I'm dyspraxic (not that it was a widely known 'thing' in the 80s) and after the third bit of crockery got broken (within the first ten minutes) the cooking teacher got very angry, shouted at me, I got very upset, shouted back, and stormed out. I went straight to the head (a lovely nun who I feel lucky to have known) and told her I'd rather be expelled than go back into cookery which was a waste of time as far as I was concerned anyway. She was cool with it. :)

I wasn't pushed towards any sort of career, really. I was just encouraged to fulfill my potential and told in no uncertain terms that I should not for one minute think that doing the Cambridge entrance exam wasn't for people like me.

Obviously the teachers at your school were very different, and didn't encourage you to fulfill your potential, but that was down to them as individuals not an inherent fault of all girls schools. As I understand it, girls who go to all girls schools do much better in Maths and the sciences, because there are no boys to hide behind. Girls schools are Good, as far as I'm concerned.

Xenia - 0f course career women don't do housework! They get another woman in to do it for them! What will happen when all these women are lawuers and doctors? Who will clean their houses and look after their children? It won't be women, obviously, as they will all be in Parliament and Lincoln Fields. It must be the MEN then that will be doing this, that or people from Eastern Europe (more likely).

When will some people GET than an equal life is not all about us making as much money as we can?

smelly women are often not available for interviews/spending a day shooting for a package/can't make a short notice phono as they have to pick kids up etc. It's a perpetuated cycle - men are much easier to get hold of for quotes/interviews/clips etc. We are often urged to 'get a woman if you can' but when you're up against a deadline and you need a clip in the next hour, well, you go for the male quote. Easy as that.

I am amazed the word creche hasn't come up yet.

Xenia I did the equivalent of you getting up every day and typing in order to get those 30 books out: for twenty years I got up at sparrow stupid hour, punched my arse out and came home exhausted. I had a string of shit fuck up relationships and no time to see how crap they were or get over their demise. I lived in a man's world and was as good as them. But in the end it nearly bloody killed me. The men in it nearly killed me. Some workplaces will not tolerate women standing up to sexism. They do what the media is so good at in order to get rid of pregnant/PND/groujnd down by the sheer sexist shit they encounter every day. They.. (as the men always said with a smirk)... 'Make Your Life Hell Until You Throw The Towel In'.

I threw the towel in, then stumbled across a shit-hot corporate lawyer who was brilliant and saved my bacon. She was worth her weight in gold. I imagine that you, Xenia, are as amazingly ball-busting as she is. And all power to you! But I so wish a woman like her/you had been fighting for the rights and visibility of the many other female employees in that newsroom who were utterly shafted by the male patriarchy and their sniggering brown-nose followers.

Instead of course, she has made a fortune after the event.

fwiw xenia - at time of marriage, I married 'down' in terms of family background & job, but 'up' in terms of education. I was VERY quickly overtaken on the job front though.

the problem is that there are 2 questions within this debate

1. why/how women don't achieve to the same level as men.
2. even when they do, they aren't 'seen' to the same degree as men.

it doesn't always help to discuss what women do 'wrong' to make them less materially successful than men, although that side cannot be ignored. however, there are ways in which the dice are loaded & it makes it ridiculously hard for them. e.g. i went to an all girls school - woodwork/metalwork/engineering of any kind were not on the agenda at all (plenty of praying & cookery classes). i am capable of learning those skills, but lack confidence and the kind of background knowledge that means I can approach a problem & resolve it relatively easily within those areas.

so, I had almost no choice about going into typical 'feminine' type jobs. and they don't pay as well.

it's hard to fight against these things at the age of 12 or 13. the only way to have overcome them would have been to attend lessons at the next door boys school - i wasn't prepared to be the only girl in the class, so I just went with the flow & never learnt whole areas of knowledge.

my back story isn't really of interest, except that I am one example of a whole bank of statistics - there are many thousands of us who just weren't told - make the most of you, otherwise you will end up relying on a man, which makes you vulnerable & unhappy.

another point - it is typically MALE jobs that get the most attention. Since when have head teachers been interviewed on question time? or mothers? or the owner of a clothing store? these people all contribute to society, why is it that certain jobs make people more 'worthy' of being on a news show than others?

It implies that teachers, mothers etc have no valid political opinions, which is a very insulting assumption to make.

supermum That'll be because you did economics ;) (my husband is a university economics lecturer). The person who I respect the most, in the profession, did a history & politics degree. There is a big focus on recruitment of staff at the moment. I have attended several conferences and meetings, around the world, where a big question has been 'what sort of peopledo we want' and the answer is essentially 'rounded ones'. What does she know of balance sheets, who only balance sheets knows.........:)

I agree that you need a degree but I don't think a bachelor program would be right for me. I just found my bachelor degree to be a waste of time. DH is doing an MBA and I help him with a lot of his work. It is much more interesting and the work covered has helped me a lot in my career. My BSc Economics didn't do anything but take up 3 years of my life and allowed me to tick a box that says I have a degree. I did enjoy reading around the subject but I could have done that in my own time while working.

supermum you are much much better off with a degree. Obviously there are people who do the ACA straight from school. But I don't know anyone who has done that and become 'successful' in Xenia's terms. I don't actually know anybody who did an accounting degree and has got to the top in the profession either although that may just be because one can't know everyone......

I will add that when I was thinking about my career change, I narrowed it down to medicine, law, engineering or accounting. Law was crossed off with as different in every country and it really should not have been on the list in the first place. Engineering was crossed off because male dominated and not respected. Medicine was crossed off because it would cost $200k to qualify and I couldn't earn enough if relocated to Europe to repay the tuition. That left me with accounting! Through networking I arranged informational interviews with partners at accounting firms and decided to go for it. I got myself a 1yr internship where I earnt less than unemployment. Four years later I am still plugging away but getting there.

Xenia, do you think that those people with toddlers who needed to be in on the conference call with you perhaps didn't mention them for fear of getting short shrift, and simply drugged them with Medised to stop them interrupting?

Anyway, this is about visibility rather than just achievement - although the two are obviously linked, the question is why do women who achieve the same as men get overlooked in terms of media prominence. I would be interested in your views on that.

verysmelly I broadly agree with you regarding how one should view one's life. It's definitely not just about how much money you earn or how high profile you are or how many publications you have. As it happens despite the terrible drawback (apparently) of being state educated and growing up in a council flat I am what most people would consider incredibly successful in my career. No, I don't own my own firm. And nor do I have 30 publications (10 is quite enough for me. I will almost certainly rack up a few more over the years but For the love rather than because I think it matters). And what I do is 'in the public interest'. But is my contribution to society as big as a (good) teacher's? I doubt it. I do what I do. I do it to the best of my ability, and as it happens the best of my ability is pretty damn good. I don't think that means my life is more worthwhile than anyone else's because everyone has their thing and if we all had the same thing, society would collapse.

LieInsAreRarerThanTigers My roster of babysitters is 5 people long after doing interviews and background checks this weekend. DD has not been sick but I know this will happen and we have to be prepared. DH only has 3 holiday days left and I can't take time off between January (well Dec 27th for me) and April 30th. DH can normally take time off but doesn't have the time due to taking days off to help me after DD was born and we were discharged from hospital.

UnlikelyAmazonian I never had life coaching! Would have loved to as I wouldn't have wasted my time with investment banking. I think the career advice I got as a teenager was awful. Had I known what I know now I would have done things differently starting with not going to university but doing the ICAEW CA after school followed by a part time MBA at 25. Anyway - will take a look at that thread to see if I can help.

Also, I am no high flier and I felt invisible when I overheard the comment made about me. I could fade into the background or find a way to deal with it. Time will tell if I need to leave to set up on my own. At least with accounting there is a need.

The error I suppose was in marrying the higher earner. My children's father followed my career. You married up, I married down. Is that one difference although I accept that if people meet at university stage that theory does not always work but 4 in 5 women choose a man who is a bit older and earns and will earn more and often is a bit better educated than they are.

On health I am not sure how many women are badly affected healthwise by having babies. Plenty work until they go into labour and can get straight back . Indeed medical advice these days is that extensive "lying in" in bed etc is not good for you.

I was talking to daughter 2 about stoicism. I suspect that is what differentiates the men and women I work with you keep going and do well and those who stop work at every turn or put their feet up as soon as they have a pregnancy or male equivalent excuse. that's fine. Those ones jsut won't earn much and do well and those who struggle on come hell or high water will do. When I was arranging a conference call the other night noen of the women (or men) had problems with its late timing, no one said I've a toddler etc. We all knew it was important and got on with it.

It's a can do attitude that people who don't succeed don't have. I am lucky to have it. Is it made or it born within us?

Also may be my health is good because I cycled in pregnancy, had my children early because that's sensible, don't drink, smoke, take drugs or eat junk food and weight what I did at age 16? Could those things possibly have an impact on the fact I've not had a day off work sick just about in 29 years or is it just the simple soticism or luck of the good fairy conferred on me at birth?

I'm afraid as a state school educated public sector worker, I feel a little out of the thread now! I could also feel bad about some of the remarks about women not trying hard enough etc. but I will choose not to.

I think the real issue is about making sure that women are confident to achieve their potential. I think of my ambitions/achievements as a series of points on a graph. Each point represents different aspects of my life (work, children, relationships, hobbies etc.) If you join the points together you get a curve. It is the area under the curve that is important, not just the highest point on it.

I agree with the theory of capitalism, xenia, but in practice it operates in a patriarchal society, so we are living with patriarchal capitalism, rather than 'pure' capitalism. therefore women don't have the same access to the benefits.

also, there is the issue of childbirth/health - for many women it is a minor impediment, but for others it has quite a negative impact. no men ever suffer from this, so women should be helped with this to even out their opportunities. In theory, pregnancy related sickness isn't meant to be held against a woman, but in practice it is - especially if the employer thinks the woman is like to have more than one child.

Personally I get so frustrated. I am good at my job - not just ok, but really very good. twice I have climbed the ladder of success, run my own dept, then moved & started again. my fault for following dh's career, but he earnt significantly more than i did, so what do you do?

at least now i have a decent job, and am close to being able to support dd & myself independently - which is important to my self esteem.

Xenia Let's also not assume that nobody who goes to state school and grows up in a council flat ever ends up earning a six figure salary, ok?

Unlikelyamazonian It sounds almost as though you don't consider the problems faced by women in the workplace as worthy of discussion on mumsnet.

how can any woman with a brain and a reasonable relationship do all the housework. i don't think a woman for generations in my family would tolerate unfairness at home. We aren't made like that. Have we got special strong women genes and others kow tow to men who won't lift a duster? Why would you tolerate it even for one day? It's weird. It can all be about the men earning a lot more.

Feminism is about revealing the sexism of women who say all women want to dust and leave work from pathetic part time jobs on low pay a 2pm every day. Feminism is about sayhign hey loads of we women adore lpower and even sometimes love the excitement of an all night deal and want money and success. It's about ensuring we aren't told that is male and only available to men.

It's abotu going to back to work if you choose afer 2 weeks holiday and being as little criticised as a woman for it as a man would be. It's about allowing men to stay home 100% and you work full time if the man wants to and about no assumptions over because you're female you clean the house and stay at home.

Capitalism is wonderful. you won't hear any criticism of it from me and the more women and men pathetically cry for leading their field whilst being pretty bad at what they do and hardly working any hours and no one wanting the work then the better for thsoe of us who are good and are committed. Come forth the mediocre and we can vanquish you.

Fight tooth and claw. it's much more fun than simpering in lipstick waiting for a man to come home who is your only meal ticket and whom you must please or you will be on benefits.

Why can't successful women talk? It shows people where they could get to. I met someone yesterday and we were talking about the differences between us - they want their children to enjoy their work (as indeed do we all) and were saying money doesn't matter etc etc. They could be a good scientist - that's fine by me. I said why not suggest they be the next Dyson - is it because you are working class and have no money and go to state schools? Why can't you want to be the next Dyson rather than some low paid science person just because you come from a poor home? Raise your sights but it's a fight and I'm not sure the state system of schooling really prepares children for that competition and fight or shows what is possible nor all parents either. Great dear you'd make a great nurse they might say rather than gosh you're so clever, why not be a doctor?

I'm actually very busy (Christmas rush) but briefly... this is about visibility this thread. Women need to make themselves so. I could have just done my work quietly. I haven't just done that. I wrote 30 books. How many people have written 30 books in my field? No one in the whole country. How did I write 30 books? I got myself out of bed and just typed. Hard work. Anyone could do it who can type words on a page on mumsnet.

I don't just practise my work I give talks. I give 50 a year. I stand up . I show women not only quietly do work obedientlyh in offices but put themselves forward as very good at it. I talked in iran, Dubai, nigeria etc recently. it's huge effort. Imagine single parent of 5 arranging babysitting for business trip to Africa.

i can pick up the reference to the very poor low expectation low paid parents reference above when get a minute naother time but let's not assue lone parents are non achievers. I am a loan parent with loads of chidlren I have done quite well. I am nothing special. Most of what I do is just down to hard work and perseverance.

Also, supermum you are so lucky to have your DH looking after your DD while you do the housework. [green]

I do 150% of the housework, cooking, cleaning, keeping the house, getting the coal in, cutting logs, walking the dogs (slips down my list a little, I admit) washing up, washing up more, bathing ds every single flippin night, doing stories and bedtime and tackling his ever-growing questions about 'where is my daddy,' doing house repairs or booking builders to do them, collecting ds from nursery/CM, taking him to nursery/CM, shopping, cooking in batches and freezing it, all our xmas shopping and xmas cards, getting decorations out of loft including falling off ladder and nearly killing myself, cleaning p/t for a living, writing the odd article for county magazine, mending reclaimed furniture with a view to selling on, putting house on market as can't stand the shit I get from married neighbours (it's the women who give me the shit btw ...but it's North Devon though so my fault as I shouldn't have moved here apparently)

..and just generally existing, paddling frantically below the surface to keep a roof over our heads and my son full of good healthy food, and myself from a pit of depression.

I am not studying for anything as I really don't have the time or money - no family, H's family ditched us when he left...

However this thread has made me think. I might investigate the roster of babysitters idea. I would be a bit worried about how they would tackle ds asking about his daddy all the time (just a phase so he'd have to suck it up with the babysitters) and buckle down to studying. I have my fifties and sixties ahead of me. I have been setting my sights too low. I could be a lawyer if I stuck at it.

I love listening to Xenia challenging the staus quo on feminism.

However, would we not do better to challenge the status quo on "capitalism" as currently practised in the UK as well as feminism?

What could things look like if we challenged both? By definition there can be very few (although very big) winners under capitalism. Is this a good model for the majority of us?

The thing is this has turned into a chat between high flying successful women. Which is also somehow very depressing.

Here is Supermum agreeing with Xenia: "I totally agree with making your own success. I was in investment banking and have switched to accounting (audit) with the aim of carving out a career either in internal audit or starting up my own business."

and here is a current thread from the Lone Parents section: here

What advice can you give to the latter - I am in a similar kind of position. And I certainly can't afford life coaching (lol at the thought)

Want2beSupermum I felt uncomfortable about the 'roster of babysitters' who could be enlisted to look after your sick child...someone they hardly know when they are poorly? Perhaps you haven't really experienced this much yet as your baby is only 5 months old, but it sounded rather sad to me. I think it should be the employer's assumption that a parent of either sex needs to be there for a sick child. Shame if they assume it will always be the mother.

Very interesting read, ladies. I am going to try and be objective but my caveat is that I feel very invisible in my own career right now: 10 years in, second maternity leave and at the stage where most people make the call between a difficult next few years and taking your foot off the gas for a while.

*and I am done....

I don't really mind whether journalists are male or female, or comedians and I certainly don't believe in imposing a boardroom quota on number of women as it should be on merit. But I feel torn. A quota which is restrictive and unhelpful may actually make companies ask themselves why this is so difficult to achieve and that would be some progress. Women ( like me) need to be coached in advancing themselves, in the short term, like a man would. In the long term employers should be coached in embracing the differences between the sexes and their career behaviour. When gen Y are in charge, maybe this will be automatic?

I bloody love Mumsnet and what they stand for and how they have become influential. I believe a lot of highly talented women have sought refuge here and are probably a great asset. There are other companies like this, of course, and female dominated industries. But I also think that women only groups change the dynamic of a group, and not always for the best. So creating male/ female silos is not the answer either.

Frankly, I am too disillusioned by my own situation to see the wood for the trees. Of course the next heir to the throne should be female if that becomes the case, but as you righly point out, background and real life etc affects so much of our own circumstances. And, being on the verge of chucking in the corporate towel, as it were, I can't see much connection between what companies talk and what they do, so there's no easy or short term solution.

Sorry, that's quite depressing!