Shocking, stunning, horrifying, unmissable. Guardian report on female invisibility.

Midori - as a qualified teacher it is never too late though to get back on track a bit. My dsis gave up her accountancy job when dn was born 14 year ago. She has just started as a NQT teaching maths - she is 41.

Xenia Sat 10-Dec-11 06:18:13

"like" :)

Midoriway,
You are in a precarious position because you chose an easier route than the one to being an International Executive in IT Services.This probably took years of sacrifice and hard work of a technical nature.You are not a victim you just didn't do as well as your husband.By the way what's your degree in?

Haha himilaya. As the person who originally made the point above about descrepancy in income in couples having a crippling affect on women's working potential, I have to say I think you are spying on my domestic set up. I am a graduate/ex-teacher considering to re-enter work as a TA, because it fits in better (What a depressing phrase) with DH's career and ambitions as an international executive in IT services. This works out for me as long as our marriage works out, but what happens if things go south? I'm screwed, having given up the best 20 years of my working life, plotting domestic bliss.

I am surprised that as a daughter of a strong feminist to find myself in such a precarious position. I think it comes from an utter complacency that DH's income would always be there, DH would always be there, the income would always go up, and so far it has, but I'm not blind to the precariousness of my situation.

I think Xenia's point about 'out-earning your man' (or at least earning the same) is important. It does not mean that everyone needs to be a high flyer in the private sector though.

But it does mean there is something wrong where there are so many couples where the husband is a high flyer and the wife is treading water at work, working part time or working below their qualifications (graduates/teachers working as TAs etc...) In this situation you can say "money isn't everything, that's not what motivates me" etc... But if the reality is that your lifestyle and size of your mortgage is determined by the husbands earnings then it's not that money doesn't matter, it's that it's taken care of. Then his job and ambition becomes non-negotiable, and one of the dominant factors preventing the wife turbo boosting her own career.

Given how unimportant in terms of time spent thinking about them clothes are to most successful and high paid professionals male and female it is a bit of a pity that a thread about getting women out there and visible has turned into "what to wear". It makes it less interesting to most people because we don't spend our time obessing baout clothse. Like most professional men professional women whether they are getting ready to operate in theatre or rushing to their next board meeting tend to adopt a uniform they wear most days (although we do change our underwear). I am not saying that in some organisations it doesn't pay (if you are male or female and probably more so if female) that you look right but I do think once you've got it about right don't give it a second's thought.

One reason my life is fun and I have time for a lot of stuff is that I don't spend much time at all on all this stuff (although I accept that some women perhaps those brought up in sexist homes delight in hours spent in front of the make up mirror and Saturday mornings shopping for clothes which would be the first stages of hell for me).

To get visibility you need to push yourself forward. If I say on here that I like success, power, money people (some, not all) say I've adopted "male values". That is what needs to be overcome. In the 1800s in the UK they used to say women's brains could not cope with becoming doctors because of the physical limitations within them. They are both prejudices which need to be overcome. In addition most successful people male and female also like spending time with their families and on their hobbies. I have not really noticed a massive difference with men I've worked with over nearly 30 years. They also might well like their work and be good at it but also want to get home to see the baby before it goes to bed or go out as a family at the weekend. There are more similarities and not between men and women in my view.

So I suppose one issue is to ensure how can women say "how can I be more visible" today? Join. Chair things. Particularly pick things where women are under represented. Volunteer. Be on press panels. Go on television things even if it's unpaid.

Well done theta. Though the fact that you're one woman in ten goes right back to the start of this discussion. I'm assuming that you're not the only female in your field?

Yes - smelling bad is not good. I notice that several people in my office wear the same clothes ALL the time.

I never ever wear a suit. Haven't done so for years and years. I'm too small. I look like I'm wearing my mother's clothes. I tend to wear either skinny trousers (not jeans and they don't look skin tight on me) with as many layers of top and jumper and cardigan as are necessary (I'm very nesh, me) or above the knee dresses (essentially, LBDs) in soft fabrics with as many jumpers/cardys etc etc.

I never wear heels. Dyspraxia and heels are a bad combination. I wear minimal makeup - I'm a ginge and I have very pale skin so I tend to go for tinted moisturizer or even non tinted (but factor one billion sun protection even in winter). I don't bother with eye make up - I wear glasses and I have allergies. Also, the hair is so ....much....that anything else would be overkill except on days when I completely scrape it back and hide it all under a band and in a bun.

If you're good enough, what you look like ceases to be a thing pretty early on. So long as you don't smell.

Quodlibet, I think that men have become conditioned to expect women to look "nice". Add this to the requirement that you must look "professional"

So I am reckonining that a nice suit (to dress more like men) and a demure blouse/low cut top (depending on whether you are top lawyer/admin), stockings and heels (because heels make your legs look longer) and make up (well just because noone wants to work with an ugly old boot...) is the ideal.

For whom?

radio, I agree - being a WOHM has certainly honed my organisational skills

brd, quoting me, I know a lot of people like that. I've worked with a lot of scientists over the years. They are great people with whom to work and a lot of them are not interested in money but are in their subject. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

If we want women to be visible though we need them to push themselves forward. I am sure I was a bit nervous when I first started doing public things. I'm not at all now. it's just a question of getting used to it.

Go theta you will rock it. No stripes.. it really makes the camera lense go funny and if you are sitting, sit on the back of your jacket (if you are wearing one) It gets rid of the weird pucker of fabric at the back of your neck when you sit down.

"Motherhood itself should be seen as a positive learning experience to be valued by bosses." Um why? The fact that I managed to give birth successfully has NOTHING to do with my work.

panto I meant the whole experience of motherhood, managing kids diaries, organisational skills, budgeting, scheduling, researching, multi-tasking, resourcefulness and all that - not just pushing out your sprog, although I think that also counts under the categories of working under pressure, determination, preparatory skills, physical endurance and communication. They might not directly be part of your job but at some time or another they will come in useful at work

i really don't think that was the point, want2be.

whatever one's individual economic status, and no matter whether one has $5 of disposable income or $5000, the point is about the impact on women as a class of people.

Theta Congrats on the invite to the panel. Hope it goes well.

Quodlibet I have already bought tracts of land (two homes plus land in upstate NY that we will build a lake house on) and I have a % of a small business in lieu of wages.

verysmelly its not in the next month- not happening till next year.

congrats, theta, i hope it goes well!

quodlibet, exactly! - and i am surprised no one has mentioned it on this thread already, but that is a major part of Naomi Wolf's argument in The Beauty Myth, which is 20 years old by now, and should be mandatory reading for (ahem) certain posters everyone.

Way to go theta!

Incidentally two of the men involved are very good friends of mine and both have been joking about booking themselves in for facelifts before the thing happens.

Quodlibet You have certainly got a very good point there. Laboratoire Garnier are my evil nemesis. Action liposomes and similar fake science are a long running joke in this house. My husband occasionally moans about the amount of money he estimates I spend on books (I suspect his estimate is low, incidentally ). I always point out to him that if he was married to a 'proper woman' then I'd be spending a fortune on expensive clothes, slap, hair products, manicures etc. Of course I'm doing myself a disservice there in a way, because I'm allowing myself, even in jest, to fall into want2b's straitjacket of what a proper woman should be. Sadly I;m used to being labelled not a real or proper woman due to my size (I'm skinny).

We women really like to focus a lot of our energy on destabilising ourselves rather than the men, don't we!

An overarching way of looking at things might be that there is a very clever conspiracy going on that seeks to suck women's economic power and confidence by making them feel like they MUST use up their money and energy on things that 'enable' them live up to an ever-changing, never-obtainable standard of 'presentable'.

'Quick! Women have got some economic power! Think up some useless stuff for them to spend their money on, otherwise they might do something with it that will actually make them more powerful!'

There are far, far, far more important directions I could be using my time and money than new high heels and a blow-dry. If we clubbed together all the money wasted on manicures and Babyliss Big Hairs and SlimFast and tight shoes that we never wear, we could buy tracts of land, or majority shares in companies, or time for ourselves to politically campaign. Or martial arts classes.

(btw Well done theta. You can bet your bottom dollar none of the 9 men on your panel will give more than a cursory thought to how 'groomed' he will be for the thing. And no, they probably won't be judged for it either.)

YAY!!!

Nice one, theta.

It's not exciting really, in and of itself. But it is relevant to the topic of this thread. I very nearly said no, because it might be really embarrassing. But I said yes because of this thread, and Kira Cochrane's article. So if it's a disaaaaaaaaster then I will know who to blame. ;)

Ooh how exciting theta!

I have just (literally - 5minutes ago) been invited to do a thing which will be very visible indeed. I will be the only woman among maybe 9 or so men involved in this thing. I can't be more specific about what the thing is, for fear of making it too easy to identify myself. If the truth be known, I'd much rather not do this thing. I don't mind having my name all over everywhere, professionally, on stuff I've written for example (and I do mean everywhere, not just the UK). But being filmed is slightly different. Especially now I realise that I will be being judged for my lack of grooming. Good thing grooming wasn't a criterion for selection for the thing.