Shocking, stunning, horrifying, unmissable. Guardian report on female invisibility.

Oops sorry muddled up the Natasha's.

BTW Natasha Walter's has changed her mind since she wrote The New Feminism. See Living Dolls.

Kritiq - thanks for responding to my comment about the Life programme. Glad it wasn't just me who felt like that. Also I agree completely with this: "I keep thinking of when I tried to read Natasha Walters' first book, and seeing her interviewed on some programme, asserting that the battle for equality was over bar the shouting, and thinking no, no that's not right at all. "

I had exactly the same reaction. I didn't read the book, but I did read an excerpt, and I was completely infuriated. I'm glad she's changed her mind, though it's annoying that she had to catch up with the rest of us!

i think it needs revolution in the way which people think it should be big start from family base there is still people who thinks having boy better than having girls and this kind of beliefs push the girls back!!!!

Bidisha thanks for linking that article. I've also now emailed the Today program to complain about the lack of female voices.

Personally I take Xenia's encouragement in the spirit in which I think it is intended. I've been surrounded by messages that push me to take a back seat in my career (and indeed I have taken a step back) - however I like to hear the opposite. I know that there are many who dislike Xenia's tone - but I for one am very pleased that she posts here.

MoreBeta have your female friends tried to get onto charity boards as trustees in voluntary roles? That can be a good stepping stone to a NED position and this is what I am aiming to do.

Yes that irked me too Wibbly. And the snootiness about hairdressers and care assistants - as always it is assumed that everyone must be as capable as Xenia but we are just not trying hard enough! Actually, some people will never be high-flyers, and society would not work.

Nan, I can see why you are pissed off. Just because its OK for me, does not mean it is for others eh

porca don't leave. There is no such thing as "cannot contribute". Any good discussion should take on board all views and opinions. Just because you don't agree with a certain view doesn't mean you can't stay.

A thread full of people agreeing with each other would be a mightly boring one. In fact, rather like the all-male board, I would imagine (fat paunchy men patting each other on the back is th epicture my mind paints)

Forgive me...I have had a bad day at work, having been passed over for promotion yet again as apparently, I cannot be trusted to run projects as I work only 4 days a week. Never mind the fact that I work from home on the fifth day...UNPAID!

Xenia - I agree with a bit of what you say that sometimes women are not pushing themselves forward enough - but there is another side to the arguement.

I know 4 very very highly qualified women who all have a boat load of experience and all would make excellent main Board exec and non exec Directors. Not one of them can get an appointment to a Board though because they don't already have experience as a Director. They never got promoted within their firm to their first Board position like men typically do and so they can never get appointed elsewhere either.

It isnt easy getting to the top in business but when the dice is loaded against you it is not surprisng so many women give up.

It is chicken and egg thing.

totally agree, Quod. in fact i have said before that i would prefer this to be a woman-only space as ffs there just AREN'T any anywhere else. but i know that's just a pipe dream.

interesting thought about men being scared of going on Loose Women, when going into male environments is our bread and butter if we want to advance.

I read this article the other day, and it made me realise that the reason I spend so much time on MN is because it is so bloody refreshing to be listening to/engaged in conversations full of loud, varied female voices. I'm so fucking bored of panel discussions with 4 men and one woman on them.

Interesting idea re. 16% of the license fee (above) alexpolismum. In all seriousness though, if programmes/papers/media outlets were financially incentivised because women would turn off if they weren't being represented, would that change things? I suppose the answer is that we're too used to the status quo to notice that we're not represented - it's entirely normal for men to be the experts at everything that we just accept that that's the way the world works.

i do love you, Xenia, and i wish i could be more like you in many ways.
there was an interesting blog post a while back, by an HR professional who said that when accepting a new job men ALWAYS ask for more and get it, while women take the first offer.

i was watching a doc about the Jane Austen Portrait yesterday (it's on over Xmas, do watch it) and it was gobsmacking to see intelligent female after intelligent female coming out to talk about it. all brilliant academics, all at the top of their field (albeit in girly subjects ) and all able to discuss and debate the matter in hand with humour and understanding and just enough tension to keep it interesting without spilling into actual violence. totally brilliant. and totally, utterly BONKERS that more television isn't like this.

well.....I am not disputing that is many sectors there is a huge pay barrier. I just wanted to point out that in my sector, its not all bad. and in my sector at least money = shit loads of travel, it does. sorry.

I think in some ways the recesson is good as it really starts to highlght who performs, and who does not. and I can only imagine seeing a man being paid more than you for the same work must be very galling

I am going to leave now as I dont think I can contribute to this convo

porca firstly, I think the term "codswallop" is a mild one...on par with "nonsense". So I would appreciate it if you didn't swear back at me.

Secondly, I am sorry to pick on you, but the point you make is wheeled out again and again by media and people in power, so it is very important to address it and expose it for the nonsense it is.

You are consistently equating a position of power with a jet-setting lifestyle. You are probably thinking of, say, Harriet Harman having to consciously choose to skew her home-vs-work balance to get to the position of power. Long hours, excessive travel etc.

My point is that not all positions of power require that amount of sacrifice. I am an architect, and I assure you that an architect at board level (not Norman Foster, you understand) has THE SAME LIFESTYLE as I do, and does not need to make any undue sacrifice. And yet, women are under-representated at senior management level.

NanAstley I agree with you. I have now realised that a teaching fellow is probably working as hard as a professor, in terms of demands/hours/stress. Why not get the higher salary and the status?

its my opinon based on working in business for 22 years. Its not fucking "codswallop". Not sure what industry you are in. but I see senior women and I work in a very industrial sector.

Looks there is definately sexism out there, but I do also have a view that talent and hard work get rewarded, regardless of gender

I also think that posotons of great power are a bit of a poisened chalice

porca with all due respect, that is codswallop. Very often it is not a choice between a high-flying lifestyle and middle-management "drone". In my field, for instance, the board has a very similar lifestyle to the average person...we all get home reasonably early, and all of us have our fair share of travelling to do. The board members do get invited to flasher parties than us (neetworking, they call it...harumph) but they aren't required to go.

And yet, there is only one woman on the board. And even she was promoted because the ocmpany wanted an Investors In People badge, and they could not get it with an all-male board.

But its true. the fact is that positions in power mean:
long hours
excessive travel
time away from home

and whilst some men are OK with this, many women arn't. and some are. and I hope they are very happy. Cynthia Carroll the CEO of Anglo has 4 kids.

but for me the issue is the work/life cutlure that exists within our major industrial firms. And it fucks off ALOT of men too. I dont see this as a feminist issue. Thats just my opinion

Ah, porcamiseria gives a partial answer to my question before it was even asked! The, "but women now have choices," agenda has run and run. Say 20 or 30 years back, it was recognised in many quarters that there were economic, social and political barriers to women's inclusion, visability, advancement, etc. Now, it's considered a bit "old hat" to refer to barriers - far better to put the onus back on women for their "choices."

you have missed my point. I did not say women dont try hard enough

But alot of women that work FT see the lifestyle associated with high power

and they say you know what, I am not going to go for that MD role because of reasons X, Y and Z. so let Bob go for it. he will earn £50K more than me. But he will be away all the time.

happens all the bloody time, and alot of women are happy with that decision

Yes, the Naomi Wolf book came out about the same time as Walter's, as did the ghastly one by Katie Roiphe called something like "The Morning After" or similar, about rape (message: just get over it gels, it's no biggie.) Wolf's "Beauty Myth" was pretty good, so her follow up was pretty gutting. My thoughts about the interview with Natasha Walter at the time I think were probably ageist (as in - she's not quite experienced all life can throw at you yet.) As for Roiphe, I guess you can at least say she's been consistently "not getting" sexual harassment and sexual violence all along In Favor of Dirty Jokes and Risqué Remarks.

Again, probably a diversion here, but there were a few books and articles that came out around the early 90's, supposedly "second wave" feminists, that got right up my nose because they seemed to suggest that enough of the battle had been won for women to just rest on their laurels and chill out a bit. Some started to question the use of the word feminism, or even the concept, favouring more of an "equalism" approach - you know the, "but men suffer just as much from inequality." At the same time, there was all this stuff about "lipstick lesbians" as well and it just felt like sexual identity and equality were being repackaged and sold to women on the back of Cool Britannia or something, like just a funky lifestyle choice. Urgh.

I sort of think it was around this time that the concept of "choice" started leaking into discussions. So say when you'd point out an example of systemic sexism, someone would respond with, "well, women now have more choices than in the past . . . " And then of course, there was the "girl power" crap. Oh dear.

I also had a glimmer of hope when folks started frankly discussing the concept of institutionalised discrimination in the wake of the Stephen Lawrence murder and aftermath. People were starting to discuss intersectionality of oppression as well and there seemed to be an interest of addressing institutionalised injustice in a more concerted way. Ah, that was about 10 years ago. I don't think it really gained the traction needed and the backlash against "institutionalised discrimination" came fast and furious with repostes about "political correctness gone mad."

Hmm, so where are we now again? (ha!)

and Xenia, there is a middle ground between women like you, and the stepford wives you depict. I work FT, and I am the main breadwinner. But me (and my boss) know that there is a certain level I wont get to, cos the hours and constant travel is incompatible with my life. So I earn £40K less, but I see my kids. and we are both OK wth that

oh yes that's right, there is no sexism, it's all women's fault for not trying hard enough. FFS.

I think of women really want to suceed, they can. I work in a very male dominated industry yes I do come across senior leadership, examples include a female CEO of a mining firm, a female MD of a exploration business etc

I sometimes thing that some women make a conscious decsion that they DONT want it. they dont want to work 24/7. they dont want to travel all the time. They want to see their kids. they make a decison that that £250K+ package, maybe is not worth it

so my opinon is that alot of women dont want this level of seniority

the very fact that there are women in some roles shows it can be done