Hi, I am Hully's DS. Hully said I could ask you a question!

I smell a blatant discrimination of another kind on this thread. Nicklebabe yes it was me, but your post gets more interest because I've somehow made 2 enemies. Never mind. Funny how those who shout out about discrimination often use it to stamp down on those they disagree with.

Mention religion on Mumsnet and you see discrimination loud and clear. Not that it matters of course. We're just believing loons whose opinions mean FA.

western missionaries did indeed take patriarchal religion to more pagan cultures such as in africa - that was a long time after christianity had been brought to the pagan masses of the west. there was an order of events.

HullysDS - might be worth looking at this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1357160-Shocking-stunning-horrifying-unmissable-Guardian-report-on-female-invisibility

Sorry was that to me? Guess it must be as I'm the only one you are not polite to.

See Hully's post in that case.

(Sorry, that was to SirCliff, not Hully. I can see what you're saying Hully.)

yes, Cliff - you're right.
I saw your post, but i'd forgotten who'd said it by the time i posted.

What are you trying to prove with teh goddess references?

We know people in teh past have worshipped goddesses. So?

How much overlap is there between the meanings of anthropos and andros in NT Greek, nickel? And is there also another word for 'person' being used? Sorry, I can just about read it but I've not studied it so these may be simple questions. I just wondered because I know the vulgate is often more inclined to use 'vir' when the Hebrew of the OT is non-committal, but I don't know about the NT.

nicklebabe - my point I was trying to make earlier on was that many of the translations, actually ALL of them, were made by men who translated the writings according to their own agendas at the time.

Right, sorry trying to type and work and chat on phone. So you want me to focus on this do you?

Did I not mention my opinion and the word 'theory' enough time for you to get that I am not trying to pass off what I know as the font of all wisdom?

The Egyptians, Hinduism - both large believers of Mother Goddess.
The west also had the Greeks, the Americans and so on all worshipping their own form of mother goddess.
Even Christianity worships a mother in the figure of Mary.
Now the missionaries largely came from the Roman empire and it was their goal to convert the 'pagans' - thus they came from the west.

All this is just off the top of my head so do feel free to correct as I'm sure you will.

As for the mental health card, don't make me laugh. It's a tactic overused on Mumsnet whenever someone thinks there has been an insult. Who first accused me of lacking in intelligence? Yet when I respond, I am the one rounded one. Well as someone who has a brother with severe learning difficulties, a nephew with Downs and myself a long sufferer of depression I find no insult in what I said. But of course you have chosen to be offended by that therefore there must be offence there, is that right?

Pity you can't just debate like reasonable people without resorting to shouting people down. Anyone would think this was the feminist thread!

a lot of the patriarchal societies are in the more advanced countried - in fact, LRD mentioning the Greek of the bible - lots of stories in there in the Greek use the word for "people" and it got translated into english as "men" - that's all because of patriarchy.
(of course, men were still in charge of society, but women weren't excluded every day like they appear to be in the English translations. ie - they were counted as people, not ignored completely)

The language is Aramaic.

The Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek.

You are letting down your points by your clear and obvious lack of knowledge. It's fine if you don't know things, but pretending you do and refusing to accept corrections with a modicum of grace makes you look daft. I'm really sorry if that is harsh, but it is also the truth, and TBH, I'm not feeling especially polite when you use the phrase 'the mental health card' or when you resort to personal attacks on other posters.

so knowing that they were in the west then you would acknowledge it makes what you said utter bollocks. i'd stop digging if i were you.

didn't assume you hadn't had mental health problems just pointed out that your choice of language was potentially offensive. having experienced something doesn't preclude you from insensitivity and ignorance sadly.

i'm not defensive. not sure i've been rude anywhere either? you have stated your opinons however you have stated them as facts that are simply untrue (such as the bible being written in aramaic) and i reserve the right to correct inaccuracy in a debate.

the aztecs and indigenous americans were in the WEST btw. you are doing a good enough job of insulting your intelligence without us trying to tbf

(yes I know America is not in the east btw)

LRD, do you really think that I am saying that because women had it all their own way it is now mens turn? I am shocked at that, I truly am.

Have a word with Hully about goddesses, she knows more about it than I do. But that is certainly NOT what I would ever say or even suggest.

Time I left.

Don't throw the mental health card at someone with mental health problems santa. Silly.

LRD portions of the bible were written in Hebrew and other languages, take your pick. Besides you first mentioned aramic, I just mentioned I was too lazy to look it up. I was but I have now.

I have no wish to play top trumps in education Santa, you have already presumed that I am flippant of mental health issues therefore must never have experienced it myself. I do wonder why so defensive? I think I have been polite and have stated my opinions. I have not personally meant offence, just entered into what I thought was an interesting and good-natured debate on the role of women in religion.

However I can see that you are obviously not in the mood to debate and I've no wish to have my own intellect insulted. I have far better things to do and feel I would probably waste my time in carrying on this discussion further, which is a shame.

Much of the East was covered in goddess worshipping religions such as the Aztecs, the Indigenous Americans and so on, one theory is that these religions would have carried on if it were not for the missionaries. Many of them from the UK. However I'm sure you will prove me very wrong on that too. I never said I was an expert, I just like looking into this for my own research

not to mention that patriarchal religions actually emerged in the middle east and were brought to the west when they were still largely goddess and nature worshippers.

I find this argument that once, in some conveniently shadowy time about which we have little evidence, women ruled the world to be quite vulnerable to anti-feminist trains of thought. I don't think women want to be worshipped. I don't believe it's the case that women set up gods in their own image because they believed women were so much more wonderful than men.

If I believed women were really like that how could I be a feminist?

I believe that there may have been times when women were accorded proper respect and dignity, and this may have coincided with the worship of goddesses. But the argument that women once held the power really gets on my nerves - it's like saying 'well women had it once, now it's the men's turn'.

I think a good book to read for you, is a fiction book called "Crooked Pieces" by Sarah Grazebrook.
It is fiction, but it is about the Suffrage Movement, and there are lots of polictical opinion explained in there - particularly how dangerous it would be for women to get the vote, because then a man wouldn't be in charge of his own household anymore! and stuff like that.
it's a very powerful story, and I think the way it is told helps to explain why women were treated like that.

you are correct lrd. obviously.

and utter bollocks to the west ending female ruled religions.

sorry but if you want to argue about these things it would be best to inform yourself. without playing qualifications top trumps i have a first degree in social anthropology, a HE diploma in hindu philosophy and a pgce in religious studies.

whatever you would like to pretend me to be i'm not some ignorant anti theist who doesn't have a clue what she is talking about.

Oh - and AFAIK the Bible wasn't written in Aramaic either. It was written in Greek and Hebrew. People spoke Aramaic, but we don't have any surviving Biblical text written in Aramaic.

I'm always happy to be corrected, though.

not all believers sircliff - but those who carve out a faith by suppressing their own rationality and common sense and twisting their logic into figures of 8 do end up compromising their own mental integrity in my opinion. incidentally as someone with mental health issues maybe i could choose to find your comments as offensive as you are determined to find mine?

hinduism still believes that only men can achieve moksha because women are inferior incarnations and not capable of true spirituality btw. worshipping goddesses can have absolutely no bearing on how you treat mere mortal women.