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Original poster

Can I ask a for your opinions on an aspect of rape?

90 replies

mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:02

Hey I'm a man and just wanted to see if this was ok with the ettiquette (sp?) of this section of the board. I didn't want to be guilty of trolling by accident (that's not my intention) nor do I want to be seen as trying to post in an area which I'm not wanted or to give the impression that I was trying to encroach on an area which I could understand if other posters wanted to keep it female only.
I was just looking for some feminist perspective to a question I have on an aspect/type of rape (so there's no secrecy it pertains to the issue of consent wrt a man saying he'll wear a condom and then not doing so) and AIBU can often turn into a bit of an argument merry-go-round plus I'm looking for other opinions to perhaps shape or clarify my own perspective as I feel there may be issues I'm missing.
However as I said above I don't want to post somewhere that isn't suitable or where perhaps my posting may seem unintentionally antagonistic or as though I'm just stirring, so if this is not the place for that I'd be greatful to be told so before I jump in two-footed.
cheers either way

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 29/11/2011 19:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 19:59

Cross-posted, sorry.

I believe some countries do use terminology such that both men and women are deemed to have committed the same crime, where we in the UK use 'rape' for men and 'sexual assault' for women.

I think the problem with that is the unequal power dynamic lenin mentions.

I certainly don't think it should have any effect on convictions - are they not case-by-case (or should be)?

Original poster
mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:57

fair enough.
no agenda and I've gotten my answers it would appear.
Gonna drop it there so.
Cheers for replying.
Plumpdog gonna go look up those cases now, thanks for the party names.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 19:57

Oh, no, I wasn't suggesting you delete it mayor, just that I think questioning the motivations for establishing a consensus on this issue is worthwhile.

What I'm getting at is that some people will use this sort of debate (not literally this one necessarily, but debates like this as they might happen anywhere) as a guide to 'how can I get away with doing something horrible, that isn't actually rape'. I know that sounds horribly paranoid, so I'll explain I don't mean this is conscious ... but I think when you promote the attitude that some sexual assaults are worse than others and that we can establish how and why, you have to be very careful not to also promote the attitude that some sexual assaults are really kind of ok.

I don't know if that makes sense but that is what strikes me, when we discuss relative cupability, that I just want to say 'look, it's all abusive behaviour, let's just say that'.

Original poster
mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:55

"mayor, I think there are relatively few situations where there's an exact parallel betwen what women might do by way of breaking consent and what men might do. One reason is because, rightly or wrongly, in UK law women are deemed incapable of rape, and only capable of sexual assault. "

Which is the issue that got me thinking today. Both genders could theoretically (even if unlikely) do the same thing and yet only one can be charged with rape. I was wondering if such a situation may serve to further polarise the issue of rape and perhaps negatively effect any potential conviction or further rape myths etc.`
And I wanted to know if others thought that you should be able to attach conditions to consent and what the effect of either gender should be.

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 29/11/2011 19:55

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KatAndKit · 29/11/2011 19:51

I consent to sleeping with my partner. One condition I place on the relationship is that he is not sleeping with any other women. If he was cheating on me and breaking that condition, he would not however be raping me.
I am really not sure, apart from the condom issue, what other elements could be worth discussing? lrd is spot on, what is the point of this discussion? mayorquimby if there is some agenda, or some specific point of view you want us to consider this from, do please let us know.

Original poster
mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:51

I'm not sure we need to, I was simply wondering where people, and as evidenced by asking here women who readily identify as feminists in particular, stood on the issue.
As I said at the top if this isn't the place to hold such a discussion I'm more than happy to apologise and drop it.

OP posts:
PlumpDogPillionaire · 29/11/2011 19:51

They're both cases, mayor - will check if there's much on line info about them. (There probably is.)

I think 'consent' is outlined in Sexual Offences Act 2003 s74(?) which, I think does leave scope for consent induced by fraud not to be consent - therefore possibility of rape via deception.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 19:50

mayor, I think there are relatively few situations where there's an exact parallel betwen what women might do by way of breaking consent and what men might do. One reason is because, rightly or wrongly, in UK law women are deemed incapable of rape, and only capable of sexual assault.

It would be possible for a woman to infect her partner with an STD unknowingly, and of course that would be as dispicable as a man doing the same to her. But I don't think there is any legal controversy here.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 19:47

Sorry ... this may be because the thread is moving fast, but why/from what perspective are these distinctions important?

Though we may quibble about different legal definitions, in practical terms surely the point is that no-one wants to even come close to rape. Likewise, it seems to me unpleasant to set about adjudicating which lies and sexual violations are the most comparable in impact or the most/least excusable.

I'm just not following why we need to be answering/considering these questions.

Original poster
mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:47

"I do not think women lying about contraception is 'the exact same thing' - how so?"

Sorry I was not referring directly to lying about contraception there (in my example for the man I appreciate I did use the condom scenario but also used the general example of "some other conditional element to consent), my point was with regards to the breaking of conditions placed on consent to sexual intercourse as being something either gender could do without focussing on a specific example.
Which is why I then asked if you would only apply condityional consent to the condom issue or could you imagine any other situation where it may apply?

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 29/11/2011 19:46

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scurryfunge · 29/11/2011 19:44

In England and Wales the offence of causing sexual activity without consent would cover your scenario. You can give conditional consent. Consent can be withdrawn at any time. You have to have the freedom and capacity to consent.

LeninGrad · 29/11/2011 19:43

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:43

sorry cross post leningrad. I'll adress your question now so we don't get lost in replying to posts made while typing the next

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 19:42

Well said lenin.

Original poster
mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:42

How far would you extend it leningrad? only with regards to condoms or is there any other condition one you think one could validly place on consent?

OP posts:
AnaisB · 29/11/2011 19:41

Legally (in UK) it is not rape. Morally it is repugnant, but I personally wouldn't class it as rape.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 19:41

Sorry, can you clarify what your initial opinion is?

I appreciate you trying to be polite on here but I get teh feeling you are being so careful to qualify your posts I'm finding it hard to understand what you actually think.

I do not think women lying about contraception is 'the exact same thing' - how so?

LeninGrad · 29/11/2011 19:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:40

"Have you looked at Devonald and Jheeta, mayor?"

No never heard of either. what do they concern? are the cases/books/authors?

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 29/11/2011 19:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
mayorquimby · 29/11/2011 19:37

No my aim is simply to see what others think and what faults they can see in the initial opinion I formed.
If people want to suggest what they believe the law should be and reasons why I'd be interested.
As I said at the start I think places like AIBU could turn into a slanging match fairly quickly and I think that this board generally throws up ideas and opinions which I may not agree with but also that I may not have thought about so I thought this would be the best place to profer opinions which might challenge any preconceptions i have.

"Are you really asking if women lie about being on the pill they are committing rape? If so then no, and you are bang out of order insinuating it."
No I'm not. because women can't commit rape. What I am asking however is that if someone believes that a man lying about using protection or some other conditional element to consent is committing rape, then what do they say of women who could perpetrate the exact same thing being charged with an offence which is viewed as not being as serious by many.
But also do people believe you can give such conditional consent, and if you can, does the breaching of these conditions vitiate the consent as a whole?

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 19:35

kat, I see what you're saying about devaluing the crime.

It just makes me shudder to think of the situation described in the OP, and I think it is violation, even if not rape, to not use a condom when promised.

Incidentally, though obviously lying about being on the pill is a horrible thing to do, the two aren't directly comparable and IMO shouldn't be discussed on the same thread - women can't get men pregnant, and the pill was never intended to protect against STDs.