letting the MRA trolls win

The trolls are disrupting actual feminist discussions. This isn't a feminist discussion, this is someone who has a beef with some people here but won't talk about what it is. There's not a lot to say to it really unless the OP is more specific.

Well it's a pity you don't do that when the trolls are around....

Wait for me! Just putting my coat on.

Right so. I'm off too

hear hear SaF. I'm out.

swallowedAfly keep your hair on. There really is no need for comments like that.

It is never acceptable for anyone to be trolled and it happens right across the board. In fact it happens right across the internet. Now I do keep up with the feminist threads and I can honestly say that recently I have seen more trolls on the chat and AIBU threads than on feminism. In fact the Doghouse just a few weeks ago were complaining that they were targeted most often.

I think if you post frequently on one topic and see a few trolls you do tend to think that yours is the topic they target, but in fact they target all areas of Mumsnet.

Yes there are the 13 year old trolls who just go around with ridiculous rape jokes and hatred spouting and from what I can see, MNHQ does usually act swiftly once they are reported. Their comments are deleted and that person usually gets thrown off the board. However there are some who are much more subtle, they might start off with "what about the men?" type of comment that then grows into something more vile. I believe that these are the type of people who believe in what they are saying and I would rather tackle them head on than silence them.

However I can understand feminists wanting to discuss topics without this danger of being constantly interrupted. Thing is, Mumsnet isn't a feminist board and whilst there are feminists who post here and there is a feminist topic, it's not a site primarily for feminists. So misogynists and racists are able to post on here and I can understand the offence that causes. But I really do sit on the fence because I wouldn't want this to be a closed forum.

ok if this is going to turn into another one of those 30 page threads about how the feminists are wrong to not want to be trolled i'm out of here. they tend to rapidly turn into the 'a feminist was mean to me once therefore they're all a bunch of bitches and it's ok for me to slag them off for thirty pages' threads.

haven't got the energy for another one.

Rhubarb, I see your point, but I think the difference is that most people are firstly quick to recognise racist speech, and secondly find it unacceptable. There's the weight of numbers there. Recognising and responding to misogynist speech is about 30 years behind, imo.

I think it was Eleanor on another thread who said that objecting to hate speech of all kinds doesn't speed up progress, it is the process of progression. Paraphrased rather badly but you get the jist.

and MNHQ have had it pointed out to them before that it is not the usual definition and they have replied 'so we have been told', so it's not an oversight.

They might be working to a different definition on occasion, but that is the one they state in their policy.

from Mumsnet troll policy: 'We thought it was about time we outlined and explained Mumsnet policy on the thorny issue of trolls. (For those who don't know, a troll is someone who poses as someone else in order to stir up trouble, fulfil their own perverted agenda, or just for the hell of it.)'

It is; I don't know why they use that definition, but it definitely is.

I think there's a big difference between racists/misogynists who're mostly interested in arguing about what is right and what is wrong (and I think these may be more like what Rhubarb describes), and those who are so convinced of their racism/misogyny, all they want to do is upset and hurt the targets of it. The first is a part of free speech, the second is bullying at best and turns into something very like stalking/hate speech when the trolls are given free rein.

Anyway, I don't think that's the worry on this thread. The OP's obviously upset but it is impossible to do any more, IMO, without constantly asking her to out herself and that's her decision, to talk more or to let it go quiet.

thunderboltsandlightning - that is not Mumsnet's definition of a troll at all.

Anyone who persistently uses Mumsnet to cause trouble can be blocked, no matter who they are.
And there are trolls who target all areas of Mumsnet. There are racist trolls, homophobic trolls, paedo trolls and misogynist trolls. They are all treated the same. If they persistently cause distress then they will be banned, but of course they can merely change email addresses and re-join under a different name.

I want to know why these people hold the view that they do and I would rather challenge that view. Blocking them does not make these people go away, they still exist.

But if you challenge some of them, they have a hissy fit, bring their pals in for a pile in and then piss and moan elsewhere on the net, all the while de-railing useful discussions. We can't win.

OP, this thread is akin to boxing at shadows, so if you've got something to say about specific posters, take it up on PM, otherwise it just looks like shit-stirring.

yep so if someone is acting a wanker and they are actually a wanker that's fine so long as they're not pretending to be a wanker lol

They needed to ban the trolls, the people who were here on the wind-up, just to disrupt. It may have happened as they don't seem to be much in evidence now, but they hung around for quite a while, because of Mumsnet's rather unique definition for a troll which was someone pretending to be someone else.

there are a couple of people on this thread who are quite up on all the different forums and such epic who will answer that much better than i could. most feminist forums are moderated because the heavy level of trolling and abuse they seem to attract.

Don't get the OP at all.

But as for the misogyny, it's a tough one. See, there is this freedom of speech issue and as much as you might hate their views, how can you challenge them if you merely block them and pretend they don't exist?

It's like racism. I hate racists, I find them ignorant and cowardly. However I would not want Mumsnet to ban racists because I want to know why they hold those view and I want to be able to challenge their arguments, because there are lurkers and who knows, perhaps someone reading an exchange where a few racists are made to look stupid and pathetic by reasoned and logical arguments, will be helped by it.

There is no point in pretending that racists and misogynists don't exist. They do. And I don't see the point in banning them on a public forum where such opinions should and are, challenged. If you had just a feminist forum for women who want to be able to discuss feminist topics in complete safety without the fear of trolls, then of course that is your prerogative to ban them, but on a public forum I think they need to be challenged.

For instance you do get some pornographic thread titles on Mumsnet and the Twilight fans sometimes go a bit far with their adult threads (just thinking of the snake assisted wanking thread). I'm sure you agree that those threads also stand a very good chance of offending people. So should they also be pulled as they can cause offence?

Mumsnet discusses a whole range of things, from domestic violence to anal sex and therefore you are bound to attract the odd weirdo. You can either pretend that weirdo doesn't exist or you can challenge said weirdo. Personally I'd rather challenge them.

SAF Are there any good moderated or private feminist forums elsewhere? I confess I have only been trying to find them (or even one!) in Australia - unsuccessfully.

just another point - i go to write about something and realise that actually if i put it here i am giving misogynists and mra trolls an actual bloody platform to peddle their rape myths and hatred and propaganda i'm not willing to do that and feed them the opportunities.

it really is hard to come back from being told that this is not to be a feminist space and that misogyny is to be tolerated at as an alternative viewpoint that's like saying this is the patriarchy as ever section in which case???? and boo his no f'ing way to chatting with people who make rape jokes and are deliberately offensive and upsetting towards women who have been the subject of violence and abuse. if people like that are welcome here then it's not a place i feel happy hanging out in too much.

our energy should be in fighting patriarchy and trying to cling on to the progress women have made as the government tries to undo it under the guise of recession - not arguing with impotent twats sitting in their dirty underpants taking out their issues on feminists on the web.

the OP doesn't seem to want to discuss it which is a shame because a lot of people are very keen to get to the bottom of it/reassure her etc.

but no, there's nothing to fight amongst ourselves for and i personally haven't seen any fighting. but then i haven't been around on these boards that much because i tend to want to discuss things in a more in depth and open way that has become difficult on here since it being made clear it's not a feminist space. i go to post something that would be really interesting then realise that it includes personal or sensitive issues and would be totally undefended against horrible derailing and personal attacks made generically at the posters on it and realise there's no point

OP if you are genuine then please pick someone on this thread you do trust or have a rapport with and pm them and talk about it and let's sort it out.

What venom? I came along to this board at the tail end of the trolling business and I've not seen any infighting or venom here at all.

where is the venom? i can't find any... am i looking in the wrong place? or is the op referring to pm's she's received or something? or is there chat going on somewhere else again? another board where specific posters are being discussed and she's happened upon it?

it sounds very personal, as though she's been on the receiving end of something. from someone who she sees as a regular fem poster. but i can't see anything on here. and as she's talking about ID and RL, i get the impression she thinks she has been identified and targeted in rl, but by an mn fem, rather than an mra troll?

either that or it's another wind-up trying to get us arguing with each other about who might have done what and why. but she sounds reasonably convinced/ ing.

apols for talking about you in the third person, op, but it's all surmising as i don't know what the actual problem is, or who you are/ were. there has obviously been a problem, but no-one apparently seems to know what it is, so without that knowledge, i for one am a bit, well, lost as to how to respond really.

was the problem on mn? otbt? rl? another forum?

I honestly don't understand a word OP.

are you upset because people have nc'd and/or are chatting elsewhere? I'm not or haven't and it doesn't bother me, I don't feel excluded or anything, that's just me I know but I do know the point isn't to exclude but protect. I don't see any attacks or venom either.

I think the derailers have truly won if people aren't allowed to have a good old-fashioned heated debate. We're all individuals with our own opinions, aren't we? Not some homogeneous mass? (Or femigeneous - ahaha - yes I know that's wrong.) We should be allowed to not agree about things. That's by no means akin to trolling, which aims to offend on principle.

I believe in the sisterhood, not in the identical-twinhood. My sister and I fight like cats and we want quite different things out of life for the most part. But that's all right... isn't it?

MRATs = MRA Trolls