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Original poster

Rape in literature (warning may be triggering)

186 replies

careyjones · 28/11/2011 14:29

Hi there, first off I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Carey and I'm 21 and just getting into feminism and found these wonderful boards.

I'm hoping to get some feedback from some of the more seasoned feminists on here, (but any opinion is helpful!)

My friend is writing a book...and in the book he includes a section about rape. The basic premise of the book is set in a futuristic world, where people get 'scored' for how well they play by the systems rules, how attractive they are, how many girls they can get. Its supposed to be a dystopian novel and he writes it very well and its funny and intelligent. In the section that I am talking about, he is introducing a character who 'one day realised he was a rapist'.

Now, he writes in quite a surreal way, and he is clearly not painting this rapist character as a sympathetic character at all. But there is something about it that just doesnt sit right with me. And i'm not sure what it is. I have tried to talk to him about it, but I really am quite new to these topics and can't quite seem to articulate what exactly I find uncomfortable about it.

He is a feminist. His mum and his sister were both raped...so he is not some sort of rape apologist.

He said his motivation for writing the rape scene was because he wanted to delve deeper into the MIND of the rapist, as even if we see them as 'evil' people (they do indeed to evil things) they are still people. He wanted to humanise them. Not excuse what they did but understand. And also to show how messed up the society had become, that things like this could happen.

I think my main problems in the scene were

  1. the absence of any female voice. I think its very important to have the voice of the rapist to understand them...but having nothing from the girl...seems oppressive and not constructive. Unless he is deliberately trying to prove this point. In which case he needs to be more obvious.
  1. The idea of 'stranger rape' in an alley way....whereas actually women are raped more often than not by friends or people who know them.

But there may be more. I don't know.

I want to be able to give him constructive criticisms on it...because i think it is so so so important to deal with these issues in the best way possible. We live in a society where rape joke are rife and politicians talk ridiculously about 'good rape and bad rape' so if we have the smallest chance to make a difference through literature/art/politics I think we should do our best to take it.

I'd like to post the excerpt (my friend wont mind, he has told me I can show it to as many people as I want to discuss it...he wants to make it good) I will post it in the next post and I would love,love,love to hear peoples opinions on it.

Beware it is quite descriptive of the rape, so if you are upset by thing like this you may not want to read on.

OP posts:
Trills · 28/11/2011 17:01

I want to know WHY men feel like they can rape.

You should probably also add I want to know why men WANT to rape - because it's not about fulfilling a sexual urge.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/11/2011 16:59

Oh, that's just what I was looking for proles. Thanks.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/11/2011 16:57

Well, a lot of people (like your friend) assume rapists rape because they want sex, for example. In fact the rape myths Elephants listed cover a lot of it. Is that what you mean?

I mean, you know your rape myths ... I'd have said that the myths are what rapists either think is true or want to pretend is true, they're the 'hidden assumptions' (eg. that women deserve to be raped if they're in a dark alley, etc. etc.).

Original poster
careyjones · 28/11/2011 16:56

No LDR I wasnt offended, and I'm very grateful for you for taking the time out to comment/criticize.

And yes his writing definitely does need more work...it is only a first draft, nowhere near finished. Which is why I want him to nip this whole misreperesentation of rape thing in the bud before it goes further!

OP posts:
Prolesworth · 28/11/2011 16:56

Here carey: Rape culture 101

Original poster
careyjones · 28/11/2011 16:54

'What is less usual is to read someone explaining the actual hidden assumptions that underlie rapists' way of thinking.' LDR this really interests me, what sort of thing do you mean by this if you don't mind me asking? What hidden assumptions?

Also...is the rapist point of view quite well documented? I was doing some research trying to find accounts of rape from the rapist POV earlier today and couldn't find any. I mean...I wanted to find an actual rapist who was talking about his crime honestly after having paid time for it. I wanted to understand why men rape. What actually IS in their mind? So much research is done on 'why women get raped' and 'how women should act so as they dont get raped' which is obviously awful...I want to know WHY men feel like they can rape.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/11/2011 16:49

I think we did give some information about how to write about rape in a feminist context ... the answer from both me and SGM was he needs to read a lot more. And it may be that ultimately the answer to how to write about rape is 'not by humanizing the rapist'.

I think fiction is a really difficult way to attack myths and misconceptions. I'm not saying it is bad or anything like that, but it is difficult. So if his main interest is challenging rape myths, I think the best way is to always challenge them in public, maybe to get involved with or form a local society of men against rape, that sort of thing. Or if he is more interested in learning, I suggested and will again, that reading some feminist theory might be really interesting.

I'm sorry if you felt offended by proxy by my criticisms of his writing style. However, I would respecfully disagree that anything can seem bad writing out of context. His writing style does need some work. It could be that his style is not equal to the very difficult task of writing well about rape ... but then, this too would be an argument for not trying to use fiction as the means of communication, IMO.

Original poster
careyjones · 28/11/2011 16:46

LDR...honestly I completely understand. The reason I AM posting this here is because MY 'stop peddling rape myths' alarm bells were ringing when I read this. I want to be able to talk to him about this constructively but I really honestly do not know enough about it to explain it to him fully.

Which is why I asked for help here. As I stated before I am new to feminist issues but I have started to be very interested in them lately.

I really am sorry if I caused any offence. And yes this is my first post, but I was looking for a feminist forum, for the sole purpose of asking about this excerpt.

OP posts:
Original poster
careyjones · 28/11/2011 16:42

No I'm not the author.

Honestly, I'm not actually asking for critisms of the WRITING, I'm asking for cristisms of the way he wrote about the rape. Anything can seem like 'bad writing' taken out of context so I'm not asking you to judge his skills as an author...that is not fair. And he is not a bad person or a bad writer, he is a victim of misinformation about rape from the society we live in. He is trying to write about something he clearly does not understand to a full extent.

I was asking for constructive criticism in regards to talking to him about how he could write about rape in a feminist context.

And yes, I have heard of rape myths...I listed the fact that I disliked his use of stranger in an alley rape.

What WOULD be a good way to write about rape? What WOULD be an attack on common myths and misconceptions?

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/11/2011 16:32

Fair enough Elephants ... maybe I'm too cynical.

To be honest I suspect I'm on the defensive because the extract gets all my 'stop peddling rape myths' defensiveness engaged.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/11/2011 16:26

I don't think the OP is the author - I have friends who write but aren't published and don't mind me sharing their work with other people, especially if it's someone who might know something about the topic on which they're writing. The author could be a student or something after all he clearly has a lot to learn. :o

LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/11/2011 16:22

I must admit I wondered if the OP were the author too.

I'm sorry to be cynical, but honestly, I am a little surprised anyone would be ok with their friend posting large sections of their unpublished novel on a website that both they and their friend have (it seems from the OP) never posted on before.

If you are the writer, you can admit it you know.

irnbruguzzler · 28/11/2011 16:19

Just what literature needs- another rape down a dark alley

Have you or him even heard of the term 'rape myths'?

Are you the author?

ScarlettIsWalking · 28/11/2011 16:08

Really dreadful and so choc full of rape myths I don't know where to start.

VeronicaSpeedwell · 28/11/2011 16:07

I read about half of it before I'd had more than enough. He really needs to read a lot more before even trying to write about this (or anything else for that matter).

maybenow · 28/11/2011 15:55

it's crap sorry.

there's no hate there... it assumes the rape is about wanting sex rather than power and control...

PoppyDoolally · 28/11/2011 15:54

I would also like to add that juvenilia like that which fails utterly to comprehend that rape is a violation borne usually from hatred and desire for power is tantamount to rape porn.

Tell your mate to keep stuff like that in his head. It's insultingly bad.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/11/2011 15:54

Everything in it is to lift responsibility from the rapist. It is basically a list of excuses. Shall I list them?

  • it was his way of dealing with ageing
  • it was because his friends had rejected him, he just wanted to interact
  • implies that he had a sexual urge he couldn't resist
  • fate was to blame
  • he would rather have been "beautiful and delicate"
  • it hurt him "so much"
  • he didn't even get sexual satisfaction out of it
  • labels it as "sex"
LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/11/2011 15:52

It is really, deeply shite writing but I'm not sure, TBH, that it is worth anyone's time dissecting the literary failures ... I don't think this man needs to learn to write better, I think he needs to rethink his attitudes in a serious way.

StewieGriffinsMom · 28/11/2011 15:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hullygully · 28/11/2011 15:49

It's just shit really. On every level.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/11/2011 15:48

"Fate rolled the dice, and in his case they said ?Rapist.?"

That is possibly the worst bit.

Or possible the "it stopped being rape halfway through" line.

Both make me feel physically sick.

Prolesworth · 28/11/2011 15:46

That is vile.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/11/2011 15:45

He thinks rapists rape because they just really, really want to have sex?

He's not adding to anything that will help women, here, is he. Just drawing another picture of a rape where the rapist is just a "nice guy" or "misunderstood" and readers who like that sort of thing get to have a little thrill out of reading about a girl being violently assaulted.

PoppyDoolally · 28/11/2011 15:37

I'm not sure your friend should give up the day job.

If there is one thing worse than bad sex in a novel it's bad rape in a novel.