Rape in literature (warning may be triggering)

Soz, just a quicky Beachcomber. Again, this may be just a language issue, but what term would be the equivalent of "misogyny" when describing racism? Thanks!

I think language is letting us down. In my mind, we are talking about the same thing.

Sexist prejudice is manifest in de-valuation, hatred and harmful acts towards women, endorsed by social, economic and political structures and practices.

Racist prejudice is manifest in de-valuation, hatred and harmful acts towards people of colour, endorsed by social, economic and political structures and practices.

I don't see prejudice as a weak or soft word, but I understand if others do.

Thunder, there is also the classic anti-racist formulation of racism = prejudice plus power, which I actually encountered before meeting it's counterpart in feminism! :)

For me;

sexism = prejudice + power

misogyny = male violence = male dominance = oppression = patriarchy/male supremacy

Misogyny isn't sexist prejudice though, KRITIQ, it is woman-hatred. It is a hatred of women's beings and our bodies. Prejudice doesn't lead people to commit horrendous acts of violence and oppress a group of people for millenia, you need something stronger than that.

Do you think you're confusing the classic feminist forumulation, which is sexism = prejudice plus power?

I think prejudice is a bit of a weak word here. IMO they are different -hatred is not the same as negative bias, it's stronger and nastier and doesn't carry the same connotations of a rational thought process (prejudice means someone's made a judgement before hearing all teh facts, and hatred is more than that IMO).

I'm sure people do change - I'm not saying they don't. But we're not talking directly to this bloke, but to a women who (to me it seems this way, carey, I hope I don't offend you) seems to place very little importance on her own feelings of discomfort.

In my view, misogyny is a function of prejudice. It IS the actions and behaviours that manifest from a set of beliefs. Like racism, which is racial prejudice + power, it is sexist prejudice + power.

I think we agree that there is institutionalised sexism, as there is institutionalised racism. Perhaps where we differ (and I may be misinterpreting of course - that's the problem with the written word!) is that I believe that both those who hold sexist views, who hold misogynistic views and act in misogynistic ways (and are supported in this by wider societal messages and structures,) can change. Not all want to or will change. Not all will make giant leaps. Some will take baby steps. Some will only gradually move along the continuum.

But I believe people DO have the capacity to change and some ARE willing to give up their unearned privileges and stop colluding with the mechanisms of oppression. They may not always get it right, but if they are open to "taking it on the chin," and not getting defensive, then they can shift, can start being part of the solution rather than the problem.

(maybe more later - gotta go.)

'So what is patriarchy? Patriarchy is not abstract.

Patriarchy is the systematic oppression and exploitation of women by men through the means of male violence. In other words, patriarchy is misogyny and misogyny is patriarchy.'

Yes. This.

Kri, what strikes me here is:

'Can a person have prejudiced views and engage in prejudiced behaviour without recognising that is prejudiced and harmful to others?'

• Does it always have to matter? We put so much energy into trying to understand, and trying to rationalize why people don't see the misogyny that seems so obvious to us. Sometimes this is useful and necessary. Most of us have been in the situation where we didn't know how prejudiced we were being.

But at 21 there is so much more the OP could be doing, for herself, than putting her obviously substantial energy and passion into understanding this bloke.

Kritiq, is there a reason why you keep referring to misogyny as a "prejudice"? It's a form of oppression.

To add on to what I said earlier, because there is a very large part missing.

I started out by saying; I think all men, by the very nature of living in a patriarchy, are misogynistic..

So what is patriarchy? Patriarchy is not abstract.

Patriarchy is the systematic oppression and exploitation of women by men through the means of male violence. In other words, patriarchy is misogyny and misogyny is patriarchy.

And that is a bit awkward because there is no escaping the fact that there is no mysterious entity which is responsible for male privilege, male dominance, male violence and misogyny.

Men are responsible for these things. And the buck stops there really.

Isn't the point that people are not innately misogynistic?

I am a bit lost here, but that is what I would say. Yes, society is such that misogyny is normalised. Yes, we're socialized to be misogynyistic. But it is not natural. Every man has a choice. Some people would like to believe that this isn't true, that all men are caught in a web they can't be expected to get out of, that the patriarchy is so strong, men can't challenge it and are forced to be misogynists.

I do not believe this is true.

I also do not believe misogyny is just about what you do. It is feeling hatred for women. I don't think anyone should be able to pretend it's ok not to examine their attitudes just because they think they are 'doing' nothing wrong. If you can entertain the thought that it's ok to write a piece in order to humanize a rapist, you need to examine what you are thinking and feeling. It's not enough to say you were ignorant of misogyny, or you were socialized into it. You have to take responsibility here.

We don't often talk about what men could and should do but I very strongly believe this is what they should do.

Sorry, got side tracked again! Forgot what I wanted to say next but I kind of want to pick up on what you just said and something I think thunderbolts referred to above. Here are some questions that spring to mind.

• Can a person have prejudiced views and engage in prejudiced behaviour without recognising that is prejudiced and harmful to others? I believe so. I can cite my experience as someone who never really met a non-white person until I was in my late teens, who was frankly ignorant, and I know said and did racist things without realising that was what they were. Could it be that the OP's friend was ignorant of the sexist and rape mythologising nature of what he wrote because of lack of experience, and was primarily regurgitating the sex scene/rape scene formula you see in some literature without realising that his writing was harmful?

• Can a person change prejudiced views and behaviour through learning, experience, becoming enlightened? Yes, I believe so. I would say that happened to me with regard to racism. I would never say I am not racist because I can't erase what I thought and did in the past or the messages that are still within me. Even now, I'm not always aware of when I benefit from white privilege and sometimes that awareness only comes by hearing and internalising stories from people who don't benefit from white privilege. I can be proactive in resisting the racist part of me in the choices I make.

• Is it wrong for someone who is in a position of relative oppression to put effort into the enlightenment of someone in a position of relative privilege? Well, I don't think anyone should feel obliged to do that. I detest those crap Equalities training workshops where Black people, women, gay people, disabled people, whatever are expected to be guinea pigs, offering up their stories to "educate" others. No one should be made to feel vulnerable like that, let alone responsible in any way for educating others. However, I can certainly say I'm grateful to people who did open my eyes to the spectre of racism and other forms of prejudice, but pulled no punches or used kid gloves, either. In the past couple decades, in different roles, I've spoken to a wide spectrum of folks about violence against women and other examples of gender inequality. I've met everything from stony faces and crossed arms to lightbulb moments. I think it's been worth it for the lightbulb moments if it means those people can become part of the solution instead of staying part of the problem.

• But what about those who are prejudiced and don't want to change because they don't want to risk losing their privilege? Yep, who wants to give up the goodies if they don't think there is any benefit? There are plenty of men who revel in their privilege. There are also plenty of women who believe they've carved out an advantageous position by working within structures of patriarchal privilege and they don't want to lose their toe hold either. I'm not saying they can never change either and I've seen scales fall from the eyes of some pretty hardened bigots, but for the most part, these aren't the folks worth spending alot of time trying to convince of anything.

(End of coffee break. Time to shelter from the gales I think!)

If all people are innately misogynistic, does it follow that they are also racist and homophobic at their core, because our society is?

Misogyny isn't a prejudice Kritiq, nor in the end is it an attitude LRD. It is behaviour.

Woman hatred is a physical reality that manifests itself in violence against women, rape, exploitation of women's work and reproductive abilities, huge inequalities between men and women and the acceptance of violence against women both as a terroristic threat against us (as in writing rape fantasies/rape promotion) and as an actual political tool.

Misogyny doesn't just happen, I think that's what's being missed here. It's a choice men make. If a man writes rape fantasies/rape promotion he is being oppressive to women and he is, indeed, a misogynist.

The question arises then what's a woman to do about it. Well I'd say what she should do is give any more of her energy, emotions or material input to a a man behaving in a misogynistic manner, and instead use them for herself. So I agree LRD, that maybe Carey should take up writing herself.

I see what you're saying kri.

I just feel that all of this explaining doesn't change the fact that the OP, who is 21 and living with this guy she loves and is prepared to try to help, is putting all her energy into understanding him and trying to understand where his prejudices may come from. And he put his energy into trying to 'humanize' rapists. It just makes me very sad. I get where she's coming from, I just feel why is it always women who try to understand?

I'm sure there's a spectrum of misogynistic attitudes. But either he wrote a misogynistic piece for one reason, or another. No matter how much we discuss it, we won't get away from the fact that what he wrote was awful, and she felt uncomfortable, but now she's trying to discuss it all with him. What about her?

Sorry 8carey* if I'm speculating too much, I'm just thinking what I wish someone had said to me: you have all this energy and interest and so on ... use it for yourself, get interested for yourself. Maybe get into writing yourself?

I'll fling a couple more spanners in the works. :)

I believe that all human beings hold prejudices against people who they see as different from them, at least to varying degrees. Like LRD, I believe these prejudices are socialised, not innate. For that reason, I also believe it is possible for people to "unlearn" prejudices, regardless of how they have been "programmed," and this is very important.

I don't believe that people are split into "on the surface" misogynists (or racists, or homophobes, or classist, etc.) and those who have deeply ingrained, perhaps immutable prejudices. I think our prejudices fall somewhere on a continuum and where they "sit" changes over time, depending on a whole plethora of factors. These might include things like age, life experience, family and social support networks, physical and mental health, intimate relationships and wider social, economic and political factors.

I do think the latter three are critical here. It's one thing to have a personal prejudice about a group of people, but if you have the weight of history, political will, economic systems, social institutions, etc. supporting those prejudices, then it can be that much harder to shift. That's because there will be messages all around you saying that your prejudice is right, is normal, is at least to a degree valid.

Misogyny is an example of this, as are the privileges associated with being white, straight, educated, non-disabled, from Christian heritage, etc. It's the whole prejudice + power = institutionalised discrimination business.

So, all people are somewhere on a continuum both in terms of their relative levels of privilege or oppression AND their levels of prejudice towards others. I don't believe either factor is automatically fixed.

For example, a person can have an accident or illness and temporarily or permanently lose some of their non-disabled privilege. Another can be made redundant and temporarily or permanently lose some of their socio-economic privilege. A person can come out as gay and lose some of their heterosexual privilege. You see where I'm going with this, right?

In terms of prejudice, someone like me could be raised within an all white, overtly racist community and culture, but through life experience, learning, interacting with other people, travelling or whatever, shift their prejudice levels down the other end of the continuum. Same goes for other prejudices, and I would definitely include sexism here.

(gonna make a second coffee and blether a bit more during my break!) :)

The thing is a man who writes rape myth promotion/rape fantasies is a misogynist, deep down or not.

I'm not sure. My basic point is that no matter how hard anyone tries to explain away the reasons why some men are misogynists, it doesn't excuse misogyny. Sorry if that is harsh.

I don't think you are wrong LRD - I'm just framing things in a radical analysis at societal level.

I guess my starting off point is that universal misogyny is a given; now what are we, as individuals, going to do about it in terms of our 'personal political'.

Men have certain responsibilities and women others. I don't think what you are saying is very different, I just think we may be using 'misogyny' in a slightly different way.

beach, I'm saying I think most misogyny comes from being socialised, rather than from being innate.

I don't disagree with you, I just didn't express it very well.

What I am trying to say, carey, is that you're saying he might be a little sexist. Or a little misogynistic. And I'm saying, there is no excuse for that. Yes, our society does socialize men to be sexist. But they're not some kind of passive, feeble victims who can't react. Men are perfectly capable of seeing and reacting to the way society tries to make them into misogynists. And no, I don't believe it is 'natural' or innate at all to hate women (or to hate men for that matter).

I can understand why it is important to recognize how much society encourages men to be casually sexist and automatically misogynistic. But society is never an excuse.

You can see through the fact that what he wrote, was bothering you. Now you've discussed it with him, and hopefully he sees it too. I don't know you or him, so I may get this wrong, but if he were my friend, I would expect him to be feeling pretty awful. So you probably feel quite sympathetic that he's come to this difficult realization. That's understandable. But what you can do now for him is encourage him to see that he doesn't need you to be his Feminist Whisperer for him. He's not incapable of understanding women, and hatred towards women, without you.

I don't mean you won't have productive discussions about this topic with him. I just mean, don't fall into the trap of excusing him by thinking 'oh, of course he is sexist, it's hard for men not to be sexist ... oh, of course I felt uncomfortable before he did, he's a man and it's harder for him to see the misogyny'.

I don't believe that is true really. He should see it just as clearly as you.

Sorry, I hope I am making a bit of sense, I can get this clear in my own head but not on paper! Maybe beach you'll feel I'm wrong again, I don't know.

"Look, I don't think anyone is saying that the fact he writes badly in an artistic sense means he's a bad person."

No nobody is saying that, but I'm saying because he writes in a misogynistic way that he's a misogynist. That's what Carey has got so upset about. We need to be accurate about what is going on here.

Women do spend a lot of time trying to rehabilitate men like this, and it's pretty much a fools errand. Just because he's not straight out in the open about it doesn't make the misogyny (woman-hatred) any less problematic. If he was really concerned about what he'd written about rape he would have come here himself and taken the responses, instead Carey did the work and not only that got hurt on his behalf and defended him for what he did.

Carey, if a black person found out that their white friend was writing racist material, do you think it would be a good idea for them to spend much time helping them with their writing, or would they be best advised to drop them? Misogyny isn't some kind of a minor flaw - it's the root cause of hideous misery for women right across this world.

It does sound like there's more than a flatmates' relationship going on here, which is possibly why you're so defensive about this but I don't think it's helpful to reassure you that this isn't a problem. It really is. Misogyny is universal and deeply engrained. There are very few men who are actively fighting against it, and the ones who do, do not write rape fantasies/rape promotion. You haven't found one of the good ones.

Mmm, I'm afraid I'm going to throw a spanner in the works.

I think all men, by the very nature of living in a patriarchy, are misogynistic. I don't see how they can possibly escape from it, no matter how humane and careful they are.

Men are socialised to be misogynistic. As are women.

Inevitably and inescapably we absorb patriarchal messages about women's status and purpose. We cannot help but apply the value system we live in, to our lives. We are steeped in misogyny, it is the very fabric of our lives.

For me it is just a question of degrees - some men and women are more misogynistic than others.

Which is why we talk about consciousness raising in feminism.

All men benefit from male privilege, whether they want to or not. They therefore exercise privilege whether they want to or not. Exercising privilege = oppressive = misogyny.

Which kinda sucks for everybody really.

And this is why oppressive systems such as patriarchy are so enduring - because we are all invested in them in terms of our self-identity, indeed our very being. This in turn is the reason why people hate feminism so much, are so threatened by it - the consequences of which are the extraordinary mental contortions and resulting cognitive dissonance that feminism generates in people.

Well, in my opinion anyway

carey, I don't think anyone felt you needed to apologize for petulance.

Look, I don't think anyone is saying that the fact he writes badly in an artistic sense means he's a bad person. So put that to one side for a minute. It's not really your problem anyway (though obviously you're going to mind because he's someone you love).

But the problem is, how ignorant do you have to be to think that writing to 'humanize' rapists is a good idea? Obviously on this count he was much less aware than you that there was a problem, because you did feel uncomfortable. And you should IMO give yourself credit for that feeling. And for talking it over with him.

IMO what we all need to distinguish between are men (and women) who're sexist because sexism is quite deeply ingrained in our society, and men and women who're sexist because sexism is deeply ingrained in them. If he's in the second camp, well, you need to take care because it will hurt you. If he's in teh first camp, you scratch the surface and he will be wondering what the heck he's been doing, and reconsidering, and opening up in all sorts of ways.

It's possible you are right about his deeply ingrained misogyny (we can't know; we don't know him). I'm sure some men are misogynists deep down. But the important thing is: most men aren't. Most men are not misogynists deep down. A very small number are. Those men would like you to believe all men are like them.