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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

343 replies

EleanorRathbone · 11/11/2011 20:51

NOW!!!

OP posts:
marybeard · 19/11/2011 01:11

I am so tired that I am not going to answer these now,, simply because I have been up (like most of you i guess) since 6 and I will say something ill-advised to complicated questions and then I will be in the real shit.. I will get back to you

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 01:10

That's true messy, about the backlash becoming more articulate. Sad

More insidious, too, IMO.

messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 01:09

"but I really dont think that anyone thought that was literally true , did they..(ok yes )"

you have to remember this is one of the things that feminists are always accused of - looking down on women that don't fit the feminist mold.. that's why we're being a bit pedantic about it...

messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 01:06

So what you're saying is that 70s feminism gave us the actual language to define the problem, (and that in itself was a battle won) and to argue against it but that the argument hasn't been won yet? Yes I can definitely see that. If anything I'd say today it's hard because the backlash has become more articulate in its defense of objectification of women.

Also (sorry I know you have to go to bed!) but would you say that 70s feminists were true to the dictatorial stereotype in that they disapproved of other women who were, for example SAHMs (stay at home mums)? I know I'm asking you to generalize, but ....

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 01:05

Hi Mary.

Since you want to know 'real people', you don't know me at all, but I used to comment on your blog as Lucy a few years ago.

I think there's some miscommunication here. You needn't assure me it's metonomy. I can see that. My problem (which I think is everyone else's too), is that classifying a figure of speech is really beside the point - what 'whole' does this woman represent to you, that is 'the enemy'? And is it necessary to make a woman the figure that sums up your antipathy? Sure, we might say it's 'just' symbolism or 'just' rhetoric, but .... is it ever 'just' rhetoric?

To put it another way, if we constantly use women to symbolize negative things, there's a drip-drip effect on society. I think we can really do without this.

It could also be argued that to make this woman into a figure in your rhetorical engagement with 'the enemy', you're reducing her to a cipher, which could also make me a bit uneasy. But that may be overthinking things.

I can understand it may have been a off-the-cuff remark, but that doesn't mean the implications aren't important to some of us who listen.

Pan · 19/11/2011 01:02

Patronise and hold authority here, Dont? Me??Grin That is really the best.

fwiw, I did see the FS as an enormous source of encouragement for me. But that has drained away a lot recently. And tonight's posts typifies why. But like any other forum, it's what posters make of it.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 00:55

I think there are still many people who would say they don't know what you're going on about. I'd submit it might simply be you know fewer of those people now?

I could be wrong here.

I take your point about Overton Window shifting, but it's not an end in itself, is it?

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:55

lrdthe feminist..

that is exactly my problem...! I thought i was accused of being patronising.. and then assured it wasnt me.. but every which way.. Miss V was surely part for whole (in the rhetorical repertoire).. I am close to being lost...

but I really dont think that anyone thought that was literally true , did they..(ok yes )

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:51

messy

I havent answered because I dont think it was structurally any different then (though the modalities of objectification were different). I guess that why I said the battle were won is that some things have changed in the firmament of 'what can be thought'.. sure, people will now reject the linkage between the beauty industry and discrimination against women,, they will post on websites to say that they dont agree... in the 1970s they didnt even know what the hell you were going on about. To me it seems a strange advance to have guys say.. I dont buy the connection betweem Miss world and male power.. 40 years ago they didnt even know what you were going on about..

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 00:49

Gosh, this thread has got busy.

I'm afraid I'm another one who feels uncomfortable with the idea of an 'enemy' here. The way metonomy works is to use a part to represent the whole - but is that 'whole' all women who take part in these competitions? Or the competition itself? Or the patriarchy? It's not very clear. And as as been said, using a woman to symbolize what you're against is rather troubling rhetoric. It's quite an well-established tool of misogynistic literature and speech, so there isn't much excuse for it.

And yes, I did think it was also a little patronizing to spell out what metonomy is, but I doubt that this was intentional - it's really, really hard responding to people en masse when you're on your own. And I know I slip into my most familiar style of communication when I'm stressed, so I'm sure others do it too.

Prolesworth · 19/11/2011 00:47
Grin
messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 00:46

"if I dont get to bed damn soon I will be in shit"

ha ha, welcome to the late-night-Mumsnet-one-last-post syndrome!

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:44

oh.. sorry, all a bit confusing. I didnt think I had been patronising (awkward yes, patronising no!) m

messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 00:43

MB, I'm really disappointed that you haven't answered any of my questions. I'd have been very interested to hear it from someone who has been through the second wave. I'm sure the issues surrounding MW were different then as you didn't have the whole in-your-face multi million dollar beauty industry shoving beauty products down women's throats and all that implies for women's self-image. Or maybe you did.

The reason that we use nicknames (as does everyone on the internet) is simply that posting as a feminist can bring a lot of vitriol. We're lovely really, just a bit Confused as to what you meant.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/11/2011 00:42

Sorry Mary. That was in response to Pan.

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:40

dontcall me..

example please

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:39

prolesworth.. thank you (if I dont get to bed damn soon I will be in shit)..true the disequilbrium goes both ways. And I take what you say about the 'public figure ' bit.. but i dont FEEL one..and hope I never will

I would really like to know what you make of my next piece, because it is quite different but has resonances with this

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15790507

you have to read down to the middle.. but please do...

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/11/2011 00:38

Well, when you stop patronising us, and acting like you hold the authority in this place, maybe I'll engage properly.

Prolesworth · 19/11/2011 00:37

Cross-posted.

Not angry. Frustrated (at the lack of engagement with particular points that have been raised repeatedly) and disappointed (at the undermining of feminist action, and the bolstering of antifeminist myths i.e. that 'the enemy' is other women).

Pan · 19/11/2011 00:34

oh Dont - that was a really boring simple little riposte from you.
night.

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:34

the julia long piece is on the bbc 'reponse' website .. along with that of a 'beauty queen' taking a predictably different line,, and 300+ comments.. which you may or may not be interested in.

Prolesworth · 19/11/2011 00:32

I'm sorry for the deference remark Mary: I didn't mean to be offensive but reading it back I can see that it is. What I meant to say was that by posting here under your real name - which you didn't have to do, by the way - you gain something. The guarantee of our attention, if nothing else. You've nothing to lose by it because you're not a regular contributor on this forum, and furthermore you're a public figure responding to comments about something you authored and broadcast under your real name. So yes, there is a disequilibrium of some sort, but I don't believe you're at any kind of disadvantage in this discussion by using your real name.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/11/2011 00:32

Ooooh, look... Pan's come to tell us naughty feminists off for having an opinion... Thank you, Pan. I do miss having a man to keep me in line... Grin

Thunderbolts, I'll return to that post in a little while. Looks like interesting reading, but dyslexia is playing up today, so can only deal with small chunks at a time. :(

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:31

Thunder I certainly didnt say that.. my puzzlement remains why you all (well I guess that's about 10 of you on this site, may be more elsewhere) should have got so angry at me.. the piece was a) about puzzlement at changing visceral reactions and b) emphasised the especial debt I had to feminism for more or less everything...and crumbs, it's like a torpedo (so much so that mates wonder if I am standing up to it ok)

I think the disagreement (and frankly it is marginal disagreement) is constructive).. but perhaps we could all be more generous to each other

thunderboltsandlightning · 19/11/2011 00:26

I missed this in one of the earlier links. Julia Long the organiser of the protest responds to Mary Beard:

'As one of the organisers of the protest outside the Miss World contest, I was disappointed that Mary Beard did not take the trouble to inform herself of the nature of the protest before giving her opinions on its supposed redundancy.

If Prof Beard had read our flyers, she would have seen that the protest was directed against what the contest represents, rather than the contestants. We certainly do not see Miss Venezuela as "the enemy" - rather, we oppose the objectification of women that such contests perpetuate.

Our chants make the links between this kind of objectification and other aspects of women's inequality. The "freedom bin", into which we threw lads mags and scalpels, symbolised new forms of sexism that have become normalised in the intervening years between this and the original 1970 Miss World protest. .

Prof Beard claims that the Miss World contest should no longer be a priority for feminists, but merely refers to her own comfort with her ageing body, and new-found personal tolerance of what she sees as the "bodily choices" of others.

While I'm delighted that Mary Beard is comfortable in her body, to conclude from that that battles around female objectification and sexual commodification have been won betrays a serious ignorance of the ongoing issues of ageist and sexist discrimination faced by women in relation to their appearance.

The beauty industry continues to grow even in times of economic downturn. Increasingly intrusive and risky procedures have become far more common since the original Miss World protest in 1970 - from facelifts and silicone breast implants to "nasal tip enhancement", the "internal bra" (a "revolutionary surgical breast support"), labiaplasties and "breast boosters".

Painful practices such as waxing - not only of legs but also underarms and pubic area - have become near-compulsory for young women, alongside dieting, eyebrow threading, spray tans, false lashes, stilettos and visits to the nail bar and the hair salon.

Rather than opposing the dictates and pressures on women to appear a certain way, Prof Beard argues that it is simply a question of "making those constraints work for you". For feminists, however, simplistic notions of "free choice" are seldom an adequate way of explaining gendered social phenomena, and individual adaptations are rarely a solution to structural inequalities.

For those of us protesting outside the Miss World contest, there is a clear relationship between beauty pageants and a massive industry which thrives on selling a message to women of their inherent physical inadequacy and unattractiveness. Beauty contests normalise the judging of women as objects, in spite of the PR-driven efforts of the organisers to make us believe otherwise.

The groups protesting outside Miss World - the London Feminist Network, Million Women Rise, OBJECT, and UK Feminista - campaign energetically on a range of issues including violence against women and justice for rape victims; the government's spending cuts; abortion rights; and the normalisation of pornography and the sex industry. We don't see the Miss World contest as unrelated to these injustices.

An important dimension to the protest was the presence of several of the women from the original 1970 action, who joined a new generation of feminists singing, chanting and laughing. Prof Beard may indeed have "sold out on feminism" and become more conservative in her late middle age, but luckily, others have not."