Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

Hi MaryB, I dont have anything to add to the discussion but I want to say I think you're fab.
I enjoyed listening to you on womans hour and am looking forward to listening to your points of view programs via the podcast.
It's great that you took the time to come and 'do battle' on MN!

just to sign off for the moment.. thanks for the debate, and I do like to think (as teatimesthree has it) that the big blokeish historians would have steered clear of mumsnet! more fool them

will be back soon..but i am giing to focus on the stuff in the mail (which actually applies to me and Bea.. a great interlocutor)..link again:

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2063695/Women-secrets-left--fault-usual.html?ITO=1490&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

hi everyone.. i might disagree with you in all kinds of ways.. but at least we are on the same planet. try this:
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2063695/Women-secrets-left--fault-usual.html?ITO=1490&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

mary x

I didn't say it was the purpose of feminism. The purpose of feminism is to liberate women from male oppression.

Anyway this conversation is over Pan. You've been getting in digs at me for the past week or so and obviously thought this was another opportunity.

I'd suggest you take some time to think about your male privilege and why you think you're entitled to complain about how feminism is being done here. Because you're crossing a line when you do that.

no, making a man feel uncomfortable isn't the 'purpose' of feminism, I don't think, though it is often a result of it?

I've an idea. I'll cease relating to you on threads on MN. Seems the best way fwd, probably. we aren't going to be changing our points of view.

Well if you thought I was right Pan, once again, I'd be pretty sure I was doing feminism wrong.

If it makes you as a man uncomfortable Pan we're probably getting somewhere. Feminism is about getting rid of male privilege and entitlement and male domination over women. Making feminism a source of encouragement for men is probably at about number two million on feminists' list of priorities.

Unless the feminist in question is a funfem, in which case obviously it's number one.

I was merely expressing a sort of change that i'd noticed. and I do disagree that feminism shouldn't be a source of encourgement for men, or for some men at least. I think there you are massively wrong.

So why is it supposed to matter to us then that a man doesn't find this space a source of encouragement anymore? You obviously thought it was important for us to know or you wouldn't have mentioned it. Feminism has nothing to do with being a source of encouragement for men, in fact if it is, we're probably doing it wrong.

thunder -fwiw I didn't say it was an objective for a feminist board. neither did I say it was 'an important element' of it either.

Hi Mary,

Just wanted to say that I appreciate your willingness to engage here. Not something many successful academics would do. Don't wholly agree with you on the Miss World issue, but I did really like the bit of the broadcast where you talked about the aging body and your toenail. Again, not something one could imagine N. Ferguson or others of his pompous ilk addressing. For me, there was a real sense of a feminist approach in your piece (personal is political) - which is a refreshing change.

Feminists have always disagreed with each other. This kind of Streitkultur has historically been used to discredit and weaken the movement (wimmin fighting like cats in a sack etc.), but I think it's one of its very best aspects.

If only we had a like button for posts...

Couldn't agree more with Thunderbolt's post at 10:51

Exactly Plenty. Mary your argument might have worked in terms of Ciceronian rhetoric, but on feminist terms it failed.

You undermined a feminist action (Julia Long interpreted you as saying their protest was redundant - did she misinterpret too?), you played directly into an anti-feminist stereotype by saying that Miss Venezuala wasn't your enemy, you listed a whole lot of reasons why Miss World isn't so bad after all, when it remains a sexist institution, and you generally undermined what was an excellent piece of feminism.

Feminist activism is rare, it deserves support. It really would have been better if you'd said that you supported the protestors rather than listing reasons why they were mistaken.

"fwiw, I did see the FS as an enormous source of encouragement for me"

Hmmm, that's an interesting objective for a Feminist Board - to be encouraging to a man. Why would you see that as an important element of it Pan?

POP, exactly... How can we fight for someone if we see them as a threat?

This isn't about an individual... MV may be an individual, but she's also representative of a group. As a feminist, I'm concerned with fighting for the rights of all women, not condemning the ones who don't fit with my ideologies.

As others have said, given how feminists are frequently accused of seeing other women as the enemy, it was a very unfortunate metonym. Julia Long picked up on it as did Bea Campbell - it's not just us - I think your use of rhetoric has caused massive confusion over what your message actually was. I very much hope your comment about MV being the enemy doesn't become one of those things that is forever quoted out of context ... 'see, those feminists do see other women as the enemy, Mary Beard said ...'

G'night Mary

no, it isn't worth reflecting on, don't. tbh. It seems when I 'challenge' a poster's opinion (lately) it gets labelled as being 'aggressive'. When it's merely factual. But it isn't worth arguing over now.
The fights for womens rights goes way beyond ( and pre-dated by centuries) the increasingly rarified atmosphere of the FS. That has changed recently. A lot. Not really sure why. But I will unhappily step away from it, as it gets too frustrating to be a poster where you don't 'fit in' any longer. and that's it really.

Night, LRD. :) Sleep well.

Night Mary, and any one else heading to bed.

Ok me too I'm off, ...... I'm moving AWAY from the keyboard.... deep breaths.....

Yes, Pan. Patronise and attempt to hold authority. You wade in, tell us that we're aggressive etc, make it clear which posters you have a problem with. You mansplain topics to us, and tell us off for being "aggressive" or whatever.

Perhaps that's worth reflecting on?

Night Mary.

And night anyone else who's still up ... I'm off too!