Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

It was always going to be difficult to turn it round after the way it began

I didn't realise till Thunderbolts linked it on Mary's blog, but Mary had posted again on the 'Mary Beard is marvellous' thread from when her Pompeii programme was on:
'marybeard Fri 11-Nov-11 20:24:22
This is such a long time ago... and I was so pleased that you all gave me the extra confidence. Thank you. I have got a little bit of a dig back at AA Gill (in a self ironic kind of way). Hope you half approve.. a bit worried about what you might think about the Miss World line.. but lets see!'

I wouldn't have expected this - even when someone has been on MN in the past, the more they hang out with Jamie Oliver and what have you, the less it crosses your mind they might actually care what you think, let alone be waiting for a response.

But given that they do, you can't expect them to have an infinite capacity to rise above, any more than anyone else has.

Well, guess we never know how these things will unfold! Ah well . . .

Kri - that's more or less what I was meaning, could we move on and talk about the age issues as they seemed interesting. But frankly now I don't want to in this context, after seeing the link above.

Frankly I'm wondering why we bothered given that response.

Mary's posted about this on her Times Online blog:

"But a frightening lot of the comments that appear on the Have Your Say BBC website seem to be driven by different versions of bile. Same is true for the Guardian Comment, Mumsnet .. or really any big commenting site."

timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2011/11/online-etiquette.html

LRD, I think I read your "move on" suggestion in a different way, as more of a, "okay there are things that some people are never going to agree on here but are there things they DO agree on that we can focus on and take forward."

I didn't actually see it as trying to shut down discussion, but maybe more an acknowledgement that in some debates, you get to the point where you realise that A will never get B to agree to X and B will never get A to agree to Y, but if both are singing from the same song sheet on Z, is it possible to work together on Z?

But, maybe Z needs its own thread as this one is a bit long and roundabouty! :)

I know why we're discussing Miss World. I'm sorry if suggesting moving on came across as presumptuous - I re-read and I can see why it did. It wasn't my intention.

I see what you're saying about needing some answers. I hope we'll get them too.

The stuff about older women was an interesting part. I think lots of people have said that, certainly I have. Sadly it got attached to the far more salacious and media friendly Miss World peg, hence why we're discussing Miss World. The wisdom of this connection has also been discussed.

Another thread on the aging stuff would be interesting.

But I can't move on to that on this thread as there is still so much that hasn't will never I guess be answered.

Damn, I cross-posted with you saying cross-post. You're right, I shouldn't go off topic.

Ahhh, sorry, I didn't get that! I meant the positives in this discussion, ie., moving on from what Mary said to what came out of people responding to her.

I do see why you might not want to 'move on' in that sense (and I am a bit sad that I didn't get to this thread in time to get a response from Mary to what I said, especially since I think it was valid criticism). So I'm certainly not saying 'ooh, let's all forget it and say never mind', not at all.

TBH I thought the point about intergenerational feminism and the different ways society discriminates against older women was more thought provoking than the broadcast itself, but that may just be personal taste.

x-post

Generally I prefer to stick to the topic of threads if possible. Especially if the original issues remain unresolved.

BTW I thought you meant "moving on" as in the terms of accepting the positives, which of course you should do if you think it might be the right time for you to do that. So I was supporting you.

Mind you I'm struggling to see what positives you saw in this broadcast, LRD. So didn't agree it was time for me to do the same.

Depends which 'this' you mean. If it's the piece as a whole, I agree. I don't think there's any way to spin the problem with dismissing Miss World protests, especially the way it was phrased.

But if by 'this' you mean what Kri and ButterflyEffect have ended up talking about, I think it is important to talk about aging. Maybe it needs another thread, as it is an interesting topic.

I think the idea that this is about ageing women is a red herring. Mary's toenails were a throwaway line, not a piece of political analysis.

This was about whether feminists should be protesting Miss World or whether the event doesn't matter now because the battles about objectification have apparently been won and the contestants are choosing to do it anyway.

Well, we're agreeing then. But thanks for saying I can move on the debate - what I was wondering was about what thebutterflyeffect said, about it being one of the ways of dividing women. Does anyone else find that it is really hard to judge ages by looking at women? I've noticed I can usually tell what age a man is reasonably accurately, most of the time. But not women, not at all. I think it's because of the way older women are made invisible in the media, and also because of the way some older women who are in the public eye try to look young - but also because it seems the ideal look for women in their early 20s is much more grown up (or maybe I just mean, much more expensive clothes?!) than my mum remembers it being when she was that age.

What do you think?

If you feel the need to move on do go ahead LRD.

I stand by what I said about this piece as Mary appears to stand by her undermining of the Miss World protestors.

Yes, I agree in context the remark came across as self-defeating, when placed against the Miss World comments. It's the whole broadcast people heard, not a little section.

I do strongly feel the rhetoric was misguided and justifying it by identifying the trope used is just not the point.

Having said, I think it might be time to accept the positives and move on from the negatives?

I really don't think you can argue that a remark about thickening toenails and making a broadcast about how Miss World doesn't bother you any more, is a thoughtful or politically accurate commentary on how male supremacy treats women as they age. There is an awful lot that needs saying about the position of older women in our culture - this broadcast wasn't it though.

And if getting older means you become less supportive of feminist actions and more willing to criticise them that's a problem. Thankfully what's true of Mary can't necessarily be extrapolated to everybody else.

yes, I'm not sure where the idea of 'older women enjoy more priviliges' comes from either. They will be open to as much abuse as older people do, plus more.
Having Mary talk about her thickening nails and other bits of aging isn't some kind of distraction, politically.
Inter-generational feminists? I think you mean 'older' feminists? Or those who knew their values very early in life, and 'know' much more in perspective than we do.