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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

343 replies

EleanorRathbone · 11/11/2011 20:51

NOW!!!

OP posts:
marybeard · 18/11/2011 21:37

I thought that Thunderwhatever was talking about the discussion with Bea

marybeard · 18/11/2011 21:36

in the original broadcast yes, in the woman's hour no.. I think. Are we getting confused about which broadcast we are talking about?

AlwaysWild · 18/11/2011 21:33

Mary you used the term enemy about miss Venezuela in the original broadcast. Surely that is scripted?

marybeard · 18/11/2011 21:30

Pan ... Did I talk about 'using money to progress a career'? Don't think so. I thought that was the 'beauty queen' on the BBC website.

But thank you for the 'enemies' point. If anyone thinks that most people (certainly me) can plan their rhetoric so carefully on live radio to make other people seem unreasonable... err well dream on.

Anyway the tired old lady had some reflections on POV this week about rape and the coinage. (She is keeping her head down!)

Pan · 18/11/2011 20:29

Just catching up on this one - I haven't heard of MB before, but the whole piece sounded like she was a bit 'tired' in her thinking? The whole notion of 'using the money to progress a career' is pretty weak. eg, so just how many women have that option? And what impact does that choice of beauty contest/lapdancing etc have on other womens' image in society? Idon't think use of the term "enemies" was delibarately to make others seem unreasonable, but yes the 'creation' of the notion of enemies isn't especially useful. imo

thunderboltsandlightning · 17/11/2011 21:24

Mary brought in the term "enemies" to make us seem unreasonable.

ElderberrySyrup · 17/11/2011 11:05

You know Bea Campbell did a piece on Miss World in 2007.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 17/11/2011 10:41

I hadn't thought of the link between MW contestants using their winnings to fund their studies and other female students doing lapdancing to fund theirs.

ChristinedePizanne · 17/11/2011 10:30

Go Bea!

Prolesworth · 17/11/2011 10:29

THANK YOU BEA CAMPBELL!

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 17/11/2011 10:28

Radio 4 Woman's hour now

FoodUnit · 16/11/2011 22:40

Yes I don't think 'enemies' is useful terminology...
I just think its better if antifeminism is openly antifeminism, rather than dressed as feminism, polluting and diluting from the inside.

EleanorRathbone · 16/11/2011 21:24

I think if we talk about enemies, we're adopting male terms and concepts totally inappropriate to a woman's movement tbh.

OP posts:
FoodUnit · 16/11/2011 20:42

tbal - my thoughts exactly - I think a shallow, woman-blaming analysis does feminism a greater disservice than outright misogynist MRA campaigners. It confuses things, splits people, causes infighting. Divide and rule!

thunderboltsandlightning · 16/11/2011 19:18

I'd say Caitlin Moran was more of a problem in feminism (not an enemy, why do we have to use that framing?) than Katie Price is.

TheButterflyEffect · 16/11/2011 17:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FoodUnit · 16/11/2011 15:55

BTW I find Caitlin Moran very woman-blaming in her feminist analysis - she in a lot of ways is a status quo reinforcing man-pleaser but is quite oblivious to it. So her quote is hypocritical..
She seems to want to set herself up as some sort of feminist icon, but effortlessly slipped into encouraging women to be ruled by division - blaming other womens faked orgasms and breasts for our oppression.
We are all in this together and its not fair to put other women down for bending to the pressures of patriarchy.

FoodUnit · 16/11/2011 15:48

Here's two responses to Mary Beard 1 activist and 1 pageant winner
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15754464

"There is technique in everything from walking with grace to holding oneself in the perfect stance. " No Miss Universe from Canada is not talking about the obedience of dogs in Crufts.... no... this is women being judged in beauty pageants...

ElderberrySyrup · 16/11/2011 13:44

The Caitlin Moran Vichy France quote, in context:

'Women who, in a sexist world, pander to sexism to make their fortune are Vichy France with tits. Are you 32GG, waxed to within an inch of your life and faking orgasms? Then you're doing business with a decadent and corrupt regime. Calling that a feminist icon is like giving an arms dealer the Nobel Peace Price.'

(How to Be a Woman, p.252)

ElderberrySyrup · 16/11/2011 13:06

Love this line from the beauty queen:
'But the Miss World and Miss Universe pageants, alike, are competitions. There is technique in everything from walking with grace to holding oneself in the perfect stance.'
Wow. Imagine being really good at standing.

messyisthenewtidy · 16/11/2011 13:03

sorry - "laugh at" = "complain about" Blush

messyisthenewtidy · 16/11/2011 12:57

Oh dear it seems that you were disagreed with from both sides of the argument - damned if you do..... Interesting that the 3 male comments so far represent indifference, pure backlash anger and jokey objectification, which pretty much symbolizes what men think of feminist issues.

Anyhow, I'm sure that you meant no offence, but it's just that one of the MAIN TOPICS of the vibrant current feminist scene (which you seemed to gloss over) is the sexualization and objectification of women and girls which is worse now than ever. It's huge, it's massive, it ties into consumerism, the celebrity culture, education, the pay gap, everything!!!

Miss World is a manifestation of the so-called ironic retro-sexism that has been hitting us on the head since Madonna started singing Like A Virgin. It's a joke, we're not allowed to laugh at it because we can all tell the difference, but it's still there and it still amounts to the same thing for a young girl growing up in this looks-obsessed world.

I'm glad that you feel happy about your body but there's still thousands of girls that are hating theirs. To not be bothered by Miss World personally is probably good for your health, but to not see the wider issues is kind of disappointing. So of course a few feminists are gonna be a tad miffed.

TheButterflyEffect · 16/11/2011 12:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

marybeard · 16/11/2011 12:32

you might be interested in these, very different, responses

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15754464

messyisthenewtidy · 16/11/2011 12:20

Because Jordan/ Miss Venezuela are just working according to the rules of the system that makes it clear to young women/girls that their looks/body will get them further in life than their hard work. Study as much as you want but big tits will get you further.

Not that I particularly like Jordan (don't know Miss V personally) but she's not the problem, just a manifestation of it.

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