My DD thinks feminists have got it all wrong

Yes why don't you suggest she live as my mother did, unable to have a passport, open a bank account or buy a house due to her father's refusal to countersign for her until she was over 21/25?

Is her Dad still involved? If so, take advantage of her silliness. Let him amuse himself by restricting her freedom for a day or two.

Maybe that might wake her up in a way that excellent books might not.

Since you've clearly not encouraged her sexist views, it is perhaps worth finding out where they've come from - friends, school, work, media?

yes, suggesting reading books on a topic she states she has no interest in seems odd. I like TeWihara's approach - apart from the non-smuggery bit. That would be sooo difficult after years of arguing.

Don't throw books at her! She's a teenager, she'll work out she's being an idiot eventually, but not if you try and battle her about it - sure fire way to convince her she's right.

Everytime she comes up with complete rubbish, calmly point out why you don't agree and then leave her to mull it over. ie, stick to open ended questions - "but why should men be able to do whatever job they like (including looking after DC) and women not have that choice?" but don't demand an answer, if she wants to keep the conversation going but not address the question repeat it. If she wants to talk about something completely different don't try and drag the conversation back.

And absolutely no smuggery if she changes her mind!

(My mother and I rowed a lot)

I would just leave it and let her be, as a vociferously feminist mother of 3 girls I am expecting something like this as they hit the teen years and start trying out their own views.

IMO children have to rebel against their parents, or at least test out different views. If they aren't doing that and just parroting your views (as my pre-teens do at the moment) then you could be worrying that you've just brainwashed them and they haven't developed an independent adult identity.

My views were certainly still evolving when I was 18, and I was from a family that was relatively progressive (for the context) where questioning and analysing were encouraged. I saw myself as a feminist at the time, particularly after catching the tail end of the campaign to pass the Equal Rights Amendment in the US. But, on reflection, I was probably more of an "equalist," if I can borrow Hoopsedaisy's term. I believed that men and women were equal and took that to mean that they should be treated exactly the same, with no "special measures" for either. I didn't see feminism as something that I needed for me. Oh no, I was sure that I could achieve anything a man could if I wanted under my own steam. But, I was "doing it" for other women who needed it. (ah, the naivity of youth! :) )

I don't think at that stage I'd had enough life experience to recognise the structures of power and control within society that underpin and sustain gender and other forms of oppression. A treat-everyone-equally approach only works when there is a completely level playing field and I hadn't yet seen how many peaks and valleys there were on the pitch! I think it took time before I was able to fully connect the political to the personal and see that recognising structured injustice and inequality in society didn't diminish my own abilities, confidence or capacity. It just placed it in a wider, more realistic context.

So, perhaps think of your daughter being on a sort of journey. Her views will probably shift over time and if you have sown the seeds for her to question, to analyse, to think broadly, then she'll do the rest in time.

TBH most 18 year olds dont argue coherently even the intelligent ones its just precocious word vomit,

didnt mean to offend OP I was just wonderinf having been the daughter of a woman like it it came to mind, perhaps yes it shes been sheltered by you to alot of sexism.

Her argument sounds like brainwashing from the church. Has someone else been making these arguments to her?

What's your family set up like. Do you and her dad have an equal non-stereotyped relationship?

Does she want to be a SAHM herself?

I don't know why you are worried she's not a feminist. I don't associate feminism with good thoughts. I do consider myself an equalist though - expecting to be treating equally in the eyes of the law, etc. but recognise that we are different sexes and that sometimes it is frustrating that our society doesn't treat women as a bit 'softer' and delicate than men.

I am not putting this right....if I work i the same job as a man, I want to be paid the same. However, I do like a man who gives up his seat on the bus - but I often have secret thoughts that women are better than men and they should put us all on pedastals for being damn amazing as much as the fact that a lot of women need a rest cos childcare is exhausting and others have damaged bodies after giving birth.

I think your daughter will make up her own mind and that will be just fine. Her world is likely to be a lot different. She's unlikely to have experienced any sexism so far and may never do so in the same way as yourself.

Perhaps, in common with a lot of people, including on this forum she has a somewhat skewed idea of what "feminism" means? Perhaps she has the old-fashioned view of the dungaree-wearing, bra-burning, DM-stomping, men-denigrating stereotype?

Might help to sort that out just in case.

Or she could be just being bloodymindedly argumentative for the sake of it. I know I was at that age! But it helps to tease ideas out and gain a more mature perspective on things, rather than the black-and-white extremism of the young adult.

I've often thought (though certainly never said it in real life) that younger women who shirk the idea of frminism often lack a certain amount of empathy and also a seeming inability to see the bigger picture.

Empathy - because they've never experienced sexism themselves, and see their opportunities as the same a their male peers. Indeed, I am 37 and have never really experienced sexism, but I can see the bigger picture - that it's not all about middle-class white/Western girls from happy, supportive families, who've gone to university, got well-paying jobs and have nothing but lovely men in their lives.

If you're only 18 and haven't yet gone out into the world, then it's hardly surprising that you'd come to the conclusion that feminism is outmoded.

But, if you take those blinkers off and scratch below the surface it's difficult (impossible, I'd say, but a foray round these boards proves otherwise) to ignore the continuing inequalities between the genders.

I have to say I'll be gutted if my DD doesn't align herself with feminism, I'm not going to lie! Yes, of course, she need to form her own opinions, but hmm, I won't go into why I would judge her since there are zillions of readers and lurkers ready to jump on my reason.

I agree with the others who say try not to get too het uo when discussing his with her, and try to tease out her arguments so that she can come to the right her own conclusions.

I say this also as in our next generation, dd at 11 yo is very self-possessed, knows her rights and will assert them, and so far hasn't shirked anything because of her gender. ( she has some knowledge of what 'boys' can be like).Wobetide anyone who tells her otherwise.

I'm not sure it's a lacking in 'feminist credentials' that's concerning the OP. If she was a 'well-thought out' and self-identified feminist at her age she is more likely to be an exception. Neither of my sisters would have taken that position at her age, but yet still are independent, clear-willed and self-possessed women as adults, and always have been. ( wouldstill run a mile from being described as 'feminist').
You don't have to have 'feminist credentials' to believe in equality, and act on it. But Tooth's dd appears to reject even the v. basic notion of 'equality' and accepts that her life options will be limited, though I am not sure she has thought through the consequence of that at all.

To be honest, I would worry more about her inability to make a coherent, logical argument than her lack of feminist credentials.

In terms of the women priest issue, I don't see why it is incompatible with mothering. Does she know a lot about the work priests do?

One of the obvious things about the priesthood is that it is often a career change. There are some people who are priests at 24, but it is frequently chosen by both men and women later in life. So people who become priests have often already had children so it isn't something they do instead of having children.

One major part of the work of the clergy is working with children - children's play groups, youth groups, work in faith schools, confirmation classes and so on. So being a priest is not denigrating childcare as an occupation.

Another major part of being a priest is dealing with bereavement. Grieving mothers - those who have experienced a still birth, a miscarriage, or the death of an older child would often rather share that experience with a priest who is also a mother.

Generally the church benefits from having priests who come from both sexes, various social backgrounds, different life experiences and a variety of ethnic groups because it gives them a greater understanding and bond with the communities they serve.

I think it is quite natural for people to most identify with the elements of a minority experience that have most impact on them. Most 18 year olds are going to find it hard to really understand what the issues are with combining being a mother and working, and yet on the other hand also won't appreciate what a precarious position it can be to have children and not have control of finances because you don't work. So they haven't realised how difficult either situation can be, and greater empathy comes with age. It might be better for you to discuss with her situations that are particularly problematic for younger women - predatory relationships, harassment, beauty standards and so on.

Perhaps you could point out that the women priests argument is nothing whatsoever to do with children or their care - it is a debate over the significance and relevance (if any) of the Apostolic tradition.

I was exactly like this at 18, I really look back in horror when i think of some of the things i came out with - not so much with my parents, but some teachers and friends.

It is partly that I genuinely had not encountered sexism in the way i have now, I felt that it was a non-issue. In some ways, it is good as ChickenLickn says that we're raising daughters who don't see sexism as the status quo. But the side effect can be hostility to feminism as irrelevant/outdated.

I think you should take heart, try not to get riled, and perhaps also make sure the version of feminism you are presenting is as wide and diverse as possible - thinking about childbirth and the female body as empowering could give a slightly different edge to her arguments.

Its probably rebellion tbh, do you rant alot or rant about feminism? I'm asking as one of my realtive was a master of this, especially when watching somethin'

I got so sick I would retort something so vulgar and misogynisitc, just to shock them into silence. even though I didn't believe it.

just a possible angle.

Also you don't have to be a stereotypical fem. to enjoy its priviliges its is more serious than that then be real with her, I.e god forbid she ends up in a violent relationship, If it hadn't been for feminism she wouldn't have the option of picking up the phone and ringing a womens refuge. Or the fact that women married, dependent children and career can exist!.

Sounds like she is beginning to think for herself, and not follow others like sheep. Surely it must be good, if she is confident eough to argue with you, even if you dont agree with what she is saying. She needs to be able to form her own opinions, and not just blindly agree with what you tell her. Sounds like she is growing up! She ll be fine.

Yep, reading material and continuing to engage with her in discussions. It could be that she's been fairly sheltered from the worst excesses of misogyny. I'm sure there are plenty of folk who cringe when they think of things they believed at 18 - sometimes exploring ideals that they new would wind up their parents as a bit of a rebellion. Of course there are all of those loud and pervasive messages out there that undermine the idea of women as human beings of equal value to men. So keep talking with her.

Schools are generally good on equality so she probably hasnt come accross sexism yet.

A book sounds like a good route.