My DD thinks feminists have got it all wrong

I think teaching your children how to read things critically is very important (not that you haven't done it, you are just reminding me)

Who wrote this?
Why did they write it - what are they trying to achieve - what do they want you to come away from reading it thinking?
Are they making any assumptions in their argument - and do you agree with their basic assumptions?

If my child said something racist, or homophobic, I would want to talk to them about it, make them see that what they were saying was wrong intolerant.

I would feel the same about sexist remarks as well.

I've read the thread yes, but am just re-iterating my position on it.

I personally just think that she is expressing herself. From my point of view it does seem a bit strange, but heck i was a person who several years ago didn't believe in a lot of what i do now.

Nobody is "grown up" at 18.

I'm glad she thought better of some of her arguments. I was going to say she sounds a lot like me as a teenager (and me now to some extent ), you can end up arguing yourself into a ridiculous position that you don't really believe, just to avoid backing down. Nothing worse at that age than having to admit you were wrong, or that there's something you didn't know/hadn't thought of! Also there's an element of being contrary and trying out having your own views, which you feel have to be in opposition to your parents' ones, otherwise how do you know they're your own? If that makes sense.

I'm sure no one is saying she can't have her own views Riakin. In fact it sounds like working out what her views are is exactly what she's doing right now.

Have you read the whole thread riakin?

so just because she opposes your views on feminism you are trying to force it on her? Have you ever considered that you might have tried to force it on her?

Why not let her have her own view on it? Just because her view differs from yours doesn't mean she cannot hold it...

Phew! That church leaflet sounds most bothersome

maybenow - same here. I also studies physics and had never experienced any difficulties in that sort of area (my feminism came about because of street harrassment / in the pub etc).

The real picture has only emerged for me as I've got older and found that there are real salary differences, that having a baby can scupper your career etc etc

when i was 18 being female had not stopped me doing anything i wanted i was on my way to uni to study maths and physics and not bothered about the gender imbalance. as far as i could see any woman could study whatever she wanted and it was the other girls free choice that they were all doing english or history or whatever.

however, i was shocked to learn that women were only first allowed to run the olympic marathon in 1984 which was within my memory... i think that each women/girl needs to find their own trigger... thankfully many of don't have experience of DV or rape or direct discrimination.

Are men allowed to be paediatric doctors in her view, or nurse children? Or should those roles be reserved for women? In return for this, which roles do women need to "give up" to the men?

Surely a situation where people can choose what they want to do in line with their personality is better - including women being priests if that is their desire.

On what she specifically said to you in your OP, my question would be, what about women who don't want children, or don't particularly like being around them. Where are they left in her world (where women are there for childcare and that's their role)? Is there any role for these women at all?

What does she feel about male primary school teachers? Male nursery workers? If caring for children (including their education) falls solely to women, where does that leave these men?

I suspect she is still finding her feet. When you are 18, articulate and intelligent, you like to argue about all sorts of things, often the more shocking the better.

hopefully she'll grow out of it is all I can say...

I do agree with what messy says. When I was that age I didn't really want to listen to negativity about the world. I didn't hold views like your DD's but I do remember thinking my mother was being a bit over dramatic when she expressed (fairly mild!) feminist views . However I now agree with what she was saying. Hang in there.

The problem is, Ayeda, that things have been unequal for so long that they feel like the norm to most people. Any attempt at real equality feels like "going too far" and hence is met with a backlash..

I get that totally. But her views are not in any way about equality. Maybe she's just backlashing as others have said. Fucking hell. What do we have to do to make it a level playing field? Educate kids about equlaity, we get a backlash. Don't educate the kids and we get what we always got.

I think it's more that she doesn't appreciate what it's like to really have no choice.

Although I was a big fan of equality, I certainly didn't realise that sexism against women was still a problem in the western world until I had a baby of my own, when things like the unequal distribution of maternity leave suddenly seemed really obvious and stupid.

Just to be clear, although I posted about books and ran, I wasn't implying that TT should present them as some kind of "ta da" solution. More that, if her daughter were open to reading about different viewpoints those books would be a good intro. Or, TT could be totally passive and just have them kicking around the place where they might get opened out of curiosity.

I don't wuite get what some of you are saying, though. That kids are brought up quite equally these days (not sure I agree) and so she hasn't experienced misogyny (I can see that) and so her views are, what, understandable? How does that work?

Don't worry too much. I went through an anti-feminist phase when I was her age and now I'm a feminist-to-the-end!

I've often wondered why I was like that (some of the things I said were awful!) and I think it is this: When you are 18 you want to feel optimistic about the world and your place in it. If you can rationalize the inequalities that you see all around you and convince yourself that the world is as it should be, then you don't feel quite so powerless.

If she is an intelligent, opinionated and inquisitive woman then hopefully in time she will see things as they really are....

How depressing

I agree with somewhere that the idea of giving her feminist literature is not a good one. I don't think I'd have reacted well to that at that age. (Or now, in fact).

It sounds like she's mainly just playing devil's advocate with you. if so then no harm done really and I'd leave her alone.

If you think that's not the case, then if I were you I would ask her questions that would make her think. What does she think about the fact that there are very few women CEOs, Cabinet ministers, Judges, etc? What does she think would happen to a girl who wanted to be, say, a builder, an engineer, a professional footballer? Would it be just as easy as if they were a boy? What does she think would happen to a boy who wanted to be a ballet dancer, nanny, make up artist? Would it be just as easy as if they were a girl? If women are "designed" to look after children, then does that mean a man shouldn't be a stay at home dad while the mum goes to work? What if he earns less than the mum? Why are girls expected to wear makeup, and men are expected not to? Why are girls expected to remove body hair, and men are not? You get the idea...

She clearly does want to be treated in a horribly patronising fashion, given that she's rejecting feminism

I find the idea that she should be loaded down with improving feminist literature horribly patronising (as I expect will she). She's not a child. Its up to her, whether you like it or not. Maybe she'll move closer to your way of thinking over time. Maybe she won't. You've got to let go a bit.

Or this