Wellbeing Thread - who's in?

activity log for this week:

Ran 5 miles, getting faster
1 pilates class
Cycled 10 miles to go shopping

i find the commercialism of christmas unsettling so am going to try and do all present shopping by bike!

'It's bloody brilliant! I wish I could find myself from twelve years ago and say "Don't worry, it gets SO much better! You just need to grow up a bit, get more confident, and find a feminist man." '

I love this so much I feel the need to quote it.

Btw, this reminds me of the bit where Caitlin Moran says that women need to start talking about sex frankly 'and not just on Mumsnet', and I was caught between grinning and thinking 'oi! But aren't you a bit pleased Mumsnet exists for us to talk about sex on?'.

This is a totally unhelpful comment, but you say older, post-children women are 'sexually invisible'. And - unhelpful as it is for you because I can't return the favour - I am so grateful to people who post on here, because for me, that just isn't true. It's really nice to have that, so thank you.

LRD I often think that women in our line of work (post-graduate study and teaching and reasearch) try hard not to appear 'too clever' in case it's 'offputting' - hence saying "ooh really? Tell me more!" about things we already know quite a lot about, rather than "oh I find that fascinating too! Have you noticed that xx" which is a better way of engaging than presenting yourself as a 'learner' - both for you and the speaker, as you can talk about more interesting things with someone who isn't (1) on a beginner level or (2) assuming YOU are on a beginner level and therefore keeping things simple.

Just a thought. When I moved to America after Oxford I thought I wasn't going to make any friends because grad students don't disagree in seminars over here. Someone would say "I think Frankenstein doesn't hold up to freudian scrutiny" (for example) and someone who disagreed with them would say "Yes! And also it does!" rather than "No, it does"! So I was saying "No! Because..." to everyone else's smiley "Yes! And.." - not so much a gendered thing as a stylistic thing here, but still, quite a shock to the system. I learned most of what I needed to know about cutting people off, managing people's talk-time In a seminar or conference, and keeping a meeting to schedule from my (female) advisor, who just doesn't suffer fools gladly, and will do a brief nod and "thanks for that, who else wants to contribute?" if she wants to shut down a blabbermouth who's talking without engaging their brain.
Genius stuff.

SAF I think it's pretty hard, when you've NOT been considering your actual sexual attractiveness to another person, to suddenly do it. But only because our ideas of sexual attractiveness are to do with the bodies of teenage girls. I prescribe you some classy racy novels where older women get it on, LOTS. Often post-children. I will have a think about which ones would be good. Older, post-children women have and enjoy sex just as much (and often more, thank you for bringing that up) and it's mad that we are sexually invisible. I am having the best sex of my life at the moment, but I don't look like I should be, because I am not 20 with long hair and a patriarchy -compliant body. What I am, is free in my mind and secure in my affection and attraction for my sexual partner.

It's bloody brilliant! I wish I could find myself from twelve years ago and say "Don't worry, it gets SO much better! You just need to grow up a bit, get more confident, and find a feminist man." :)

(Btw, I did get what you meant about 'yeah and', just could see myself sounding sarcastic/patronizing. Thinking about it I think it's habit from quite a lot of time dealing with men who assume any reaction bar wide-eyed fascination and curiosity from a woman is out of line. Lurrrvley, isn't it? )

I'm not slapping you but the last thing you come across as is boring! Remember he is probably thinking the same sort of thing about looking older/fatter/different ... everyone does it.

I always do that cliched confidence-trick thing where you tell yourself you're happy and calm and feel great - it works as well as anything else does IMO, and does at least remind you all the time that the focus here is you and whether he's good for you, not on him and making yourself suit him.

If this is text-flirt man, btw, I hope it goes well, it sounds very exciting!

ok so potentially meeting up with a guy i knew a bit when i was younger, slimmer, pre-motherhood body etc. it shouldn't bother me i should feel confident etc however reality is a bit different.

i'm struggling at the minute confidence wise (as in appearance). i'm growing my hair back which is never a good look, i have put on a bit of weight and i'm possibly feeling a bit old and boring too. someone slap me or offer some ideas.

i think the just not caring about how i look, what size i am etc is not attainable for me. compared to most women i encounter i'm pretty laid back about it all but i still always have little flare up crisis attacks about it. just being honest. cross with myself for being silly and caring about all this at the moment.

doh! no! i didn't mean say "yes, and?"! i meant saying yes and also blah blah blah. as in saying oh yes i know and have you thought about this? or i find it interesting that...? etc! god i would never be that rude and arrogant to say yeah and? what's your point? type thing

I'm gainfully under-employed ATM atticwoman - though I do go in to my son's school to cover the lunch hour

Thinking in some ways it's a good work/life balance - especially when like this week DH is away ( works away from time to time ) Would be nice to feel skills were better used though, even if not for that many hours/week

Perhaps I should do some voluntary work - maybe in Nursery School I'd like to work in one day ?

fortunately i appear to be gainfully unemployed at the mo... well, unemployes, anyway. there's not much gainful about it.

which means i can surf whatever i like, unless the children boot me off the laptop.

out? ought. i think i need a lie down.

lol, LRD, my brain went straight on to the 'real' bodies websites etc too.... are you scared yet?

mad - it is genius isn't it? Tilly could design us a whole art course full of proper women's bodies.

Tilly - may I book a day at the Feminist Spa please? I love this: 'the Spa is decorated with realistic Romanesque nude statues. Some of them look like they have had children etc.'

About attractiveness - I am sure a lot of it really is about what you see all the time. I will try to dig out the link on another thread to the 'normal breasts' site, which is really interesting in that if you look for a while then go past a newsagents, the boobs on Nuts or whatever really give you a start, whereas otherwise we're conditioned to almost not notice how strange they are (sorry if your boobs look like that but statistically, it's not common is it?!).

I agree about entitlement too.

Cupa - hi, I'm AnonWasAWoman/the OP. I am getting on ok-ish - I was way over-ambitious with my list but that was the idea, that I'd aim high and not worry what I didn't do. I have cut back a lot on the snickers ice cream/sugary stuff - mostly what I've done is snack on fruit and bread and so on during the day and keep the sugary stuff for the evening and that seems to take care of the sugar highs/lows nicely. The pelvic floor exercises ... erm ... well, now you've asked I'm doing them!

I think what's worked really well is going for walks and determinedly not using them to think about work or plan anything else. And the eating different fruit and veg, and the cutting back caffeine. That's been great - I feel so much better, I didn't realize how badly it was making me sleep and how headachy I was getting.

I've been rubbish at getting to bed early or getting 15 minutes downtime before I go, and rubbish at trying to start learning a language which I thought would be good.

Swimming is really good IMO - I should go but it's so cold, it's not tempting. It does feel great afterwards though, like all your aches have been worked out.

jacks - thanks, I will try that. I think you said what I was trying to say - that I struggle to find a neutral tone.

i am loving the statuary.

and slightly freaked out yet again by the simple notion of how changing the visible imagery of 'woman' around us could have such an enormous impact on how accepting we are of our bodies. i know it's obvious, but i've never thought of it in terms of roman statues instead of the modern media...

LRD, when someone starts telling you stuff you already know, I wonder how you'd feel about saying, "Oh yes, I know, isn't it interesting?" And if the conversation flags after that, picking a bit of that information and saying "and what do you think of x?" That would make it clear that you do indeed know about the subject in question, and have the brains to discuss it :o

I personally think that I couldn't bring myself to say "yes, and?" - out of my mouth, it would sound sarcastic. I am trying to change that - to learn how to say things in a neutral tone, even negative things, because I find that as soon as people perceive sarcasm in someone's tone, they think "bitch" and turn their ears off. Even what sarcasm might have been well deserved. I would like to be able to say exactly what I think, but in a pleasant tone, so that my words are heard, without my tone drowning them out. If that makes any sense at all.

OP how are you doing with your list? Did you ration the Snickers ice-cream bars and do the pelvic floor exercises? I have had a bit of a list myself for some time now which includes:

cutting out dairy and wheat
daily pilates pelvic floor exercises
daily 5- 10 mins cardio on cross trainer
chocolate and wine on Saturday night only
substituting herbal tea for at least one ordinary tea or coffee per day

I am thinking of adding swimming in there.

Be interested to know how you are getting on.

The other topic on my mind is entitlement. LRD if you were a man, I dont think you would consider the person telling you something you already know. We, as women, have been brought up to be good girls...

my equivalent is I dont believe I can be successful although by many measures I am. Somehow it is undeserved or too easy. Feminism leads me to think we can be the experts on our fields and we do deserve it. Not in an individualistic way but in connected with other women cause we deserve recognition for our achievements.

the bbc program about the choir of army wives: women who sang well were sometimes ruled by self doubt in a way the man who sang badly wasn't. Its not our fanjos making us doubt ourselves........ So entitlement is the remedy. Plus i like using the demon word of the moment!

I have been planning the feminist Spa today.... Sometimes wear my lady moustache au naturele and feel good enough as i am, and other times, i dont and bleach it. At the feminist Spa, you can not only get a haircut but come away, after a little colour application, with your lady tache in its natural glory.... Oh and the Spa is decorated with realistic Romanesque nude statues. Some of them look like they have had children etc.

THe recent survey where 50% of men think they look 'great' got me thinking that men aspire to a realistic version of themselves whereas women conditioned(?) into thinking we must look like 20 yr old model or we are unattractive. So my third act against the patriarchy is to be REALISTIC in my appearance.

No, I think you are probably right SaF.

I think I'm scared of the pauses in conversation, or of feeling as if I'm boring whoever I'm talking to by not being enthusiastic enough. I don't want to dumb myself down, I just find myself doing it. I hadn't thought of it as underestimating them because I was thinking about people who're superior to me in a work context, or who've assumed I don't know about whatever it is. But you are right, I do it with people who're not in that scenario too where there is no need.

I'm also really nervous about coming across as patronizing if I say 'yes and'.

Sorry, I don't know if I'm making sense and it's not like I'm worrying about this stuff all the time - I just noticed it a lot recently with a lot of socializing with people at conferences and with DH's mates whom I don't know so well.

**

I agree with you re. sex (well, the talking more bit, i wouldn't know about what it's like when you have children, but great to hear ). The discussions about PIV were really interesting to me in that regard - I do find PIV works for me but it was so interesting that so many people said that while it was lovely, you got the feeling lots of them were a bit surprised to find they'd finally made it work, or they were admitting it took some work to get it right. I think the whole culture about women faking orgasms is a real problem in this regard, because both men and women feel very unsure about how to say when sex isn't satisfying for the woman.

Incidentally, I may as well say this here as it's on topic and it really annoys and upsets me - my DH doesn't like oral sex on me, and this really makes me feel he's being negative about my body in a way that's quite offensive. I really don't like it, but then again get pushed up against the realization that probably, were it not for porn culture, I wouldn't automatically assume oral sex is routine. Some very tangled thoughts there!

i always want to talk about sex. i don't think women talk about sex enough personally. i'm sure we'd all have much better sex and expectations of sex etc if we talked about it more.

sex is great! and, for the record, for lack of anywhere more apropriate to announce it, sex is seriously much better for me since having a child. some say women hit their peak later, some find birth and subsequent interventions have arranged things better physiologically - who knows. but sex is definitely better for me now.

but you say, "yes AND..." surely?

it's a shared creation (conversation) surely?

no need for, 'i know' or 'how interesting' when you are sparking off of them onto the next thing.

sometimes it's about under estimating people i think. as in instead of trying to dumb yourself down to make them feel good you could flow with them and make them feel good through their interaction and collaborative discoveries.

sorry if i'm way off track.

(Oh, btw ... I didn't mean to say by 'changing the subject' that I don't want to talk about sex! I do want to talk about sex too!)

I wonder about sex and wellbeing too - my mate's mother (!) sent her a link to that Guardian article about the female orgasm, which lots of people have probably seen before, but just in case:

www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/nov/14/female-orgasm-recorded-brain-scans?newsfeed=true

I was actually mostly surprised more research hadn't already been done - like the bit in the West Wing:

Leo: "I'm sorry but can we really justify spending $800,000 on 'A Bio-Cultural Approach to the Study of Female Sexual Fantasy and Genital Arousal'?"

Toby: "How can we afford not to?"

.... Changing the subject, I clicked on this because I thought of something that really bothers me. I have a habit that when I talk to people, I apologize and put myself down a lot. Often when people are telling me something, instead of saying 'yes, I know that' I will say 'oh, that's interesting' or 'oh, tell me about that'. I really don't like that I do this. I've been realizing how much it gets me down, because I end up feeling as if I'm constantly listening to people telling me stuff I either already know, or explaining in detail when I know the detail ... but it's my fault because I give the impression I am more ignorant or more uncertain than I am.

Is this just me? I've noticed female students doing it too - I think it's quite common, to respond to someone saying something with a question, which seems as if you are just expressing interest, but actually forces you to take the position of the learner or the needy person. I wish I could stop myself doing it, so I am going to make a real effort!

Any tips for good ways to catch myself before I put myself down would be good too - I can never seem to say 'yes, I know that' without feeling really arrogant.

don't say this! i just trimmed fanjo hair today will i become weak and unsexualised?

i'm ashamed, yet too stupidly open not to mention, to note that i have a bit of a flirtation going on and am getting a bit fruity minded and what do i find myself doing today? shaving my armpits in the shower and then trimming away at my bush. purely coincidental of course

how do sex and wellbeing fit together? i'm having a serious hankering now and i'm pretty sure (i've known feast and famine) that our sexuality definitely has a role to play.