group dynamics in majority female/minority male groups

Same friend, incidentally has many many stories about males in the glass elevator in her profession, Male headteacher, as was the last one. Tiny percentage of male teachers, who get the kudos from the other teachers, the head (natch) and parents. But those re just anedcdotes, of course.

Thinking further, it's ridiculous to say males re more direst in their bullying/harrassment/undermining. By the time they've got to workplace level they've certainly caught up. Very few are still at the bottom pinching level of sexism, which is direct and easier to deal with.

They're the ones talking over other people, not hearing womens contributions, suggesting golf and lapdancing clubs s suitable client entertainments. None of that is explicit, 'women do it too' yadda yadda. It's devious and bitchy and very hard to handle.

No messy but I bet if I had, I'd be a nutcase. Then 5 mins later a male colleague would do it, and he'd be admirably fit and dedicated

My friend is a primary school teacher and she also says that re the boys/girls bullying thing. I agree with her really, after all it's easier deal with hitting - it's pretty unambigous, than with the more subtle forms of exclusion etc.

Thing is the poor little lad being hit is also being excluded, teased, talked about to some extent too. The problem from a feminist perspective is conflating the fact that girls are more likely to use ambigious tactics with the blanket statement Girls are devious and bitchy.

An interesting link www.ucalgary.ca/iejll/soohoo . If female to female bullying is less likely than male bullying, to be addressed within schools resulting in those females having lower esteem, school attendance problems, school transfers, bulimia, acting out, depression, etc., it will impact on their adult life and opportunties for success.

According to Rachel Simmons (Odd Girl Out) - One of the hardest things for me as an interviewer was to listen to the stories of adult women. These women, in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, still carried with them the vestiges of victimization. They told their stories with unusual clarity; they could remember the clothes they wore, the food they had eaten, the words they spoke on the hardest days of their girlhood. These women reported a life filled with troubled relationships with other women. Most difficult for them was trusting other girls or women afterward.

SinicalSal - ha ha! (did you do the exercise anyway?) um, how about slapping hand to head and yelling at top of your voice "Of FFS, I just SAID that! I know I don't have a penis but I thought this was the 21st century not some MadMen scene from the 1950s!".

Actually I wouldn't know, seeing as I haven't really had any original ideas in my life Apart from when I invented Nylon of course ...

Blackduck - yes, and the idea that girls' so-called "bitchiness" is somehow worse and more devious than boys' "more honest" bullying.

EllaDee - I agree - I think when women want to curry favor with men they will often seek to distance themselves from feminism and the easiest way of doing so is to put down other women. I have one particular friend who always does this when in the presence of the one man in our group. It's very frustrating.

Oops, my post too is out of context, it's moving so fast, sorry! I meant how do people deal with men making your point, and it suddenly being deemed worthy of consideration.

I think the tern you are looking for is 'handmaidens' ella totally agree.

SinicalSal, try diverting your fuming into physical exercise - do 50 pressups and run around the block twice - who says feminism can't be good for your figure?

Missy and SGM well said. I am not disputing that female on female bullying is horrific, as in male on male or male on female, it is the implicit 'girls are more bitchy' that bothers me.

I would love to watch my ds's class at school where girls out number boys 2 to 1 as I think it would be fascinating to see the dynamics in a set of young children.

Oops, I have just seen this thread has moved on and RL is calling me away! Damn - will be back soon!

I just wanted to say, re. girls bullying girls/women being hostile to women, that I think that concept of 'gatekeepers' (is that the term?) is relevant here - women who judge other women harshly, according to the standards of the patriarchy. Some majority-woman groups can be very like this - especially when we're expected by society to show the men who're present that we're not all like Sheila over there, with her hairy armpits, or Jane who keeps insisting the men not dominate the conversation ...

What's the best way to deal with that?

Sitting fuming (my usual strategy) isn't satisfactory.

The links to the others should prove informative.

MAT, I don't think feminists would argue that girls are incapable of bullying each other, just as I'm sure you're not arguing that boy on boy bullying is harmless. Power plays a part in most group dynamics I should imagine, and this thread is interested in the way the gender power balance in wider society affects the group dynamics of mixed groups.

Feminism shouldn't need to argue that women are perfect in order to qualify for equal rights.

Happy to help
www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED502646.pdf - look to page 24 cites plenty opf researchers.

As for patterns, I'm rather taken by this one

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=knitting+patterns+balaclava&um=1&hl=en&biw=1016&bih=579&tbm=isch&tbnid=yTVe2pKZZtZioM:&imgrefurl=barbaraknitsagain.blogspot.com/2011/01/christmas-1940.html&docid=_3Pa9eKP07AVuM&imgurl=1.bp.blogspot.com/_U96l3SQLV8U/TSnmSwW5-CI/AAAAAAAAAe4/4DFM9T9EMXo/s1600/Balaclava%252Bwoman.jpg&w=577&h=782&ei=4wmoTpqdDdCw8QPdvaDBDw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=156&sig=113074550015129903514&page=4&tbnh=162&tbnw=120&start=37&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=knitting+patterns+balaclava&um=1&hl=en&biw=1016&bih=579&tbm=isch&tbnid=yTVe2pKZZtZioM:&imgrefurl=barbaraknitsagain.blogspot.com/2011/01/christmas-1940.html&docid=_3Pa9eKP07AVuM&imgurl=1.bp.blogspot.com/_U96l3SQLV8U/TSnmSwW5-CI/AAAAAAAAAe4/4DFM9T9EMXo/s1600/Balaclava%252Bwoman.jpg&w=577&h=782&ei=4wmoTpqdDdCw8QPdvaDBDw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=156&sig=113074550015129903514&page=4&tbnh=162&tbnw=120&start=37&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:37&tx=59&ty=65

Hazel :o

Blackduck:
www.punch.co.uk/images/Cartoons/business/03.gif

Interesting. The worst and most sustained attacks I have ever seen and experienced have been men unable to cope with women in positions of power over them.

But anecdote does not equal data as we all know

MrsT I'd like to see stats to back that statement up as I am not convinced it is necessarily true.
Anyway back to the female/male dynamic thing, I have tended to find that where men are in the minority they still dominate (on the whole) and certainly the glass elevator thing appears to be very true. Take Univeristy Admin, still a largely female preserve, but look at who the Registrars are. My pet hate is when a woman says something and it is ignored (or not heard) 2 mintutes later a man says it and all the men agree, concur or whatever.

Female/female dynamics are by far the most problematic as far as I'm concerned. Most of the bullying I've experienced, or heard of is one, or two females take a dislike for any number of reasons, they take onside others in the group, a pack starts to form and thinking of some recent cases of school bullying has driven some to suicide.
Men may be more capable of physical cruelty but females win hands down when it comes to psychological cruelty.

ok, glass elevator thingy - i suspect that's more to do with any minority position, not necessarily just from male in female environs. it certainly happened to me.

Shall we get back to the discussion? The sensible one, that is.

what on earth is your point?

exactly messy, don't forget if it weren't for men you may well not be here

Who threatened my granny is the first place carpet? Men with rifles and such.

WTF does this have to do with the issue of group dynamics in male female groups?