controlling women during pregnancy

I believe the term is arsehole, yes Trills, he was vile.

My point is that women are not beung dictated to, they aren't because it isn't written in law.

"Should alcoholic men be forcibly sterilised?"
There alcohol intake doesn't effect the health of another and they wouldn't get residency of a newborn.

What a horrible man!

I worked on the assumption if you wouldn't give it to a baby ease off having it yourself, in terms of guidelines.

The control is an interesting question though. When I was pg with ds1 I was at a wedding, I had not drank for the duration, but my FiL had (at my request) poured me a small glass of wine which I had kept back for the toasts.

A man at our table had been steadily drinking and reached over to take my glass "stating that's not for you, I'll take care of it for you", when I objected he was utterly incredulous and kept insisting I was not allowed to drink it, and "it wasn't on" despite myself and others at the table pointing out it was fine.

About 5 minutes later after everyone forcibly changing the conversation, my dh wanted my attention (he was Best Man) before I had got a metre from the table he leaned over, snatched my glass and drained it.

FiL and others were furious, I returned to various tempers, his poor wife was alternating between mortified and silently fuming (she had been in the toilet for his initial outburst). He then insisted "it was for you're own good, you do not drink when pregnant". FiL went to the bar and purchased me a glass of wine and he was frostily ignored until he sat elsewhere. (His wife apparently went nuts at him later).

From my POV, their are many conditions you can have that mean you cannot consume alcohol. Pregnancy is a very visible condition though, and one that makes you physically weaker and vulnerable than in your normal state. This (admittedly drunk, but still no excuse) man used my condition to bully and coerce me into handing over my drink. He then used it to justify stealing from me.

If I hadn't been pregnant, he would not have attempted to control me.
But I can't decide whether the vulnerability of pregnancy is the issue, or the alcohol guide lines.

I don't think the fact that women give birth to both boys and girls negates it being a feminist issue Birds (not that the OP was asking that anyway - she was asking for a feminist perspective). However, if something that only affects the female population i.e. pregnancy can't be classed as a feminist issue god knows what can! (And as another side point another human being is only involved in the pregnancy at the point of conception and once the baby has been born - in between it is a foetus).

Plus a feminist perspective can be applied to anything e.g. why boy racers exist.

And stopping men from abusing their children is not the same applying conditions before babies are even born. The latter begins to encroach on putting the rights of the foetus before the rights of a woman. The former is law that we all have to abide by, regardless of sex.

It is a fine line between control and advice. NICE were considering tests to see whether women were smoking during pregnancy not long ago. States in the US are trying to pass laws whereby women who miscarry can be prosecuted. These are examples of where advice crosses over into control (and blatant misogyny). I would say, the more guidelines, the more it is controlling. (and on the point about listeria - prepacked salads are a well known source of listeria and that isn't even mentioned in any guidelines I have read).

Personally, I object to this feeling of mistrust and judgement surrounding everything I eat/drink or even do while I am pregnant and that I am suddenly incapable of making an informed decision (or even using instinct). I also dislike the way your life and body suddenly becomes other people's property and total strangers feel perfectly obliged to comment on your size, shape and even touch you because you are pregnant. The OP has also fallen foul to this by describing women who choose to drink during pregnancy as not having the "willpower" . That is immediately making a judgement on women who make an informed decision about whether they drink or not.

As Lenin says men aren't subjected to submit to this kind or quantity of advice at any part of their life.

And don't even get me started on how wrong it would be to force a drug addict to have an implant.

Agree Birds.

If we didn't have the information with which to base our decisions there would be just as many accusations of women being controlled through lack of information. If you chose to continue to drink alcohol after you've done the research, and you feel that you can't/don't want to give up then no-one is forcing you.

I didnt drink or smoke during pgs. I didnt want to.

However the blanket ban on drinking was introduced whilst I was pg with one of my DCs and I remember being very annoyed. Not because I wanted to drink but because it was publically admited that there was no evidence to say it was dangerous to drink a small amount. They were saying NO drink because of the people who drink a lot.

Treating us like fools. Those who will drink to excess in pg with do that with or without extra advice. The do it because they have a problem.

Those who do not have issues are perfectly able to moderate their drinking to a safe level given accurate information.

As i say i haven't decided this for myself.

There are alcoholic/drug addict women getting pregnant because under the law they cannot be forced to get an implant/coil fitted, although they will not be able to keep the babies, in some cases the babies will be disabled.

I deal with the 'fall out', so i have a different take on it because i see the results, in the UK womens rights in pregnancy are being upheld, regardless of the conscequences.

All research is conflicting and it depends on how it is interpreted. The same could be said when discussing zero amount of alcohol when driving.

What you do in pregnancy does affect another person, it isn't like any other issue. Drinking alcohol isn't the only topic that the guidelines exsist for.

My point was the advice is given but there isn't a pentalty, under the law, for not sticking to it, except of course a possible still birth or disabled baby, the choice is still left to the mother, which many to be fathers would say, isn't fair.

In terms of alcohol, should alcohol be so ingrained in your life that you cannot go without drinking?

i'm fine with research, and recommendations based on research too.

what is rather different is recommendations that go far beyond research, disregard the rights of women, and the 'you will do as we say' approach in maternity care does not produce any better results..quite the opposite...

STIDW, just playing Devil's Advocate here and to quote you "There are higher risks of miscarrying/stillbirths and developmental problems associated with both." Are there also many studies which state if you leave having children until you are older that there will also be a far higher risk of disability, stillbirths, miscarriage, problems conceiving etc ? Choosing to have a career and delay a family is a choice.

It's entirely about controlling women, because 'you are incubators' has always been the way to control women. Every right and freedom women have fought for has been initially refused because it might damage women's potential as breeding stock (it used to be claimed that teaching women to read would make their wombs shrivel up).

Pregnant women are trusted, though, they cannot be charged or imprisoned for bad behaviour during pregnancy. The guidelines are there, some people need them, there are women who don't have access to the internet or the inclination to use it, what is wrong with he guidelines being put in the pack given at anti-natal (or whatever it's called) appointments?

If research is found, should it not be shared? Should research not be carried out because pregnancy only happens to women?

The last peice of research that i read stated that around 30 babies are born stillborn in the UK because of Listeria poisoning, considering that some of them would have been female, it isn't only a feminist issue and can never be, because another human being is involved in pregnancy.
This would pose the question of which is more important, a pregnant woman's wants or the life of her female child (taking males out of the equation for this one). I don't think that there is an easy answer.

It cannot be looked at like other issues because in the UK we don't allow men to put children in danger, anymore. We don't allow neglect of children, so why unsafe behaviour during pregnancy?

Tbh i haven't answered this for myself, these are just the thoughts in my office that we have, as we see so many babies and children pernamently disabled by bad parenting, before and after birth.

I also don't get bossed about much while pg by HCP, I am offered things but I haven't been told I 'have' to do anything. Does it depend where you live?

For example I have been offered a consultant appointment in late pregnancy because I had an unplanned CS last time. Also I have been offered sweeps towards the end of pg, as induction is not advisable after a CS. I don't feel like I've been hassled or pushed in any direction. The hospital I go to is quite pro VBAC I think, so maybe I'd have felf different if I was desperate for a CS!

I think the 'don't drink anything' reccommendation is simply to try and persuade people who would think nothing of drinking loads/carrying on as normal to cut down or stop. I think it's more about trying to get through to get through to don't care/understand.

Not saying it's a good idea or will actually work, it's done in a similar way to many other things - appeal to the people at the worst end of the spectrum and hope that others will see sense themselves.

Probably just ends up annoying everyone.

I cba drinking when pg, one glass seems a bit pointless, so I think i will just wait till this one emerges too.

i thought it was illegal in the states....

however i googled it and it appears it is merely very hard to get served in the states, the law skirts around it in various ways...