Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

Goth - "Secular" means "separation of religion and state" so not sure what you mean by "most Turks are secular". Turkey as a country is secular, like France. Turks living there have no choice but live in a secular manner.

Do you mean "practicing"?

Most Turks are actually practicing Muslims (believe in God, pray, fast during Ramadan, etc) but they are not fundamentalist Muslims (not literal followers of Quran & Hadith so they don't cover heads, segregate men/women, wear bikinis etc).

Fyi, it is not a paranoid fantasy that "Muslim" strangers in many Muslim countries are held up to different standard than non-Muslims. A Muslim English friend of Indian origin is about to move to a Muslim country because of her Christian DH's work. She has spoken to UK consulate there for guidance and they warned her that she would need to act the same as local women and like other expat wives if she wishes to avoid problems. Apparently, they could apply for alcohol license for home consumption, but they won't, in case for example the cleaner realizes that it is not only her husband who is drinking.

Nailak, as our resident expert (hope you don't mind!)- could I ask you a question? I remember reading a book by an Egyptian feminist years ago saying that Muslim and Western feminism differed in the struggles that they faced; that the entrenched belief in Western cultures was of women's intellectual inferiority, whereas it was clearly accepted in Muslim cultures that women were intellectual equals (and that the issues there were more to do with sexuality).

Certainly when I lived in Turkey many many moons ago I was struck by the confidence that women had in their own intellectual abilities and the men's acknowledgement of this (at least the men that I mixed with), whilst here we are constantly having to prove ourselves in that respect. Would you say that was true in your experience?

Sorry to be so generalistic, but I'm really interested in the differences between the two feminisms and how they are affected by the differences in cultural history.[hsmile]

Yes, she had a name Her name was Konca Kuris.

I meant we haven't seen any Muslim feminists in Turkey, obviously.

nailak - She was strangled (or drowned? Same word in Turkish) precisely so that she would not go to heaven, apparently. Do you know why that would be?

Nailak - Meee! Very interesting woman indeed as is Ingrid Matteson.

Also, like most Muslim countries don't have plenty of non-practising Muslims/ people of other religions. Plus, it's known that many Turks are secular.

I doubt you are in danger whatsoever, but don't let that stop you from smearing Muslims.

has anyone heard of amina wadud?

What on earth do you mean "We haven't seen any Muslim feminists"? I know loads and not just in the West either. Did this poor woman have a name btw?

subhanallah, May Allah grant her jannah and punish those responsible.

re "Muslim feminists"

Oh I knew one in Turkey. A very articulate and intelligent writer, she wore a headscarf and was very vocal on TV programs about the place of women in Islam and the need for reform, including the right for women to pray alongside men in mosques.

One day, she was abducted in front of her husband. Nobody knew what happened to her until her tortured and partly decomposed body was found in the underground chambers of a Hizbullah house two years later. She had to be identified from her dental records. Tapes of her "interrogation" were discovered in the same house. Hizbullah announced that she deserved death because she was an advocate of secularism and an enemy of Islam who led to confusion and poisoned Muslims with her ideas.

Since then, we haven't seen any Muslim feminists. Wonder why.

Incidentally, this is why I don't travel to Muslim countries. In many of these places, people can be very tolerant and permissive of foreign tourists, but strangely hostile at a "Muslim" who doesn't act like one. Someone who should be like them but isn't. Very dangerous place to be.

No, by your Lord, they are not believers until they make you their judge in the disputes that break out between them and then do not resist what you decide and submit themselves [to you] completely. (Surat an-Nisa': 65)

Nor does he speak from whim. It is nothing but Revelation revealed. (Surat al-Najm: 3-4)

Therefore, this makes clear that ahadith are a part of the revelations.Indeed, Qur'an is also a revelation.But ahadith are also said by syeddina rasulullah salellahualaihiwasalam.So if you say that it is wrong, then you go against the above ayah.

You should accept whatever the Messenger gives you and abandon whatever he tells you to abandon. Have taqwa of Allah... (Surat al-Hashr: 7)

Now tell me, if you ignore ahadith.Then how will you know what he sas has asked you to abandon and then accept as well?

Cote with this comment "a mere piece of cloth isn't whats liberating or oppressive, but the institutions, both cultural and governmental that force women to wear them or not to wear them" I meant that a piece of cloth is inanimate and it is not imbued with any significance until it is given one, the same way shackles would just be pieces of metal until they are used to oppress

And to.say all.Muslims should protest against it, is a bit like saying all women should.protest against it, the majority of Muslims have a lack of.awareness just qsbthe majority.of women do.

Also spero, there are many Muslim majority countries, Algeria, turkey, Tunisia where the oppossite us the case and women are under pressure to not wear hijab, and are discriminated against if they do, the only countries I can think of wear face covering is forced is Saudi and Afghanistan?

And trust me, Muslim women do abhor the hijacking of their religion.

And other posters gave stated they want wider discussion, not reasons why individuals cover up, so we can't win really.

Cote I would say that the quran commands us to follow Muhammad, and the sahabah, that is why we follow hadith, I will find the verses.

And I would say that there is outcry in the Muslim communities about things such as fgm and preventing women from being educated, not having mosque facilities for women etc, if you go on any Muslim forum you are likely to see this, it is related to the trend of debating cultural based faith that many of the new age Muslims are doing, and they try to distance themselves and educate about these types of issues, starting with their own families. One of the major issues that Muslims oppossed to culture based faith spend a lot if time addressing is racism within Muslim communities.

And those niqaabis I mentioned that were politicaly active, this is the type of thing (fgmm, women prisoners etc) that they spend a lot of time campaigning, protesting and raising awareness about.

There are many organisations run by Muslim women, for Muslim women dealing with issues such as forced marriage or dv and they use Islam in their work to demonstrate how it is not condoned.

The issue if I wear it because I want to and it makes me feel good can also be seen as indicative of wider trends within society, in which the rights of the individual are paramount as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Other examples could be open marriages, which we would say the same, as long as they are consenting, and it makes them feel good who are we to get involved.

This could be viewed as a result of secularisation, as the state does not dictate our moral bounds as much as previously, and we are free to choose from a spectrum of beliefs or spiritualaties, including those at either end.

Spero - The Muslims don't condemn enough is a common canard.

What does it mean to openly abhor? Do I have to go around with a sign on my back?

Just Google Muslim feminist and see some of the work that Muslim women are doing for Muslim women's rights, before you write us off. There is a lot of work going on at grass roots to fight domestic violence, like this: www.marwaaly.com/2011/10/muslims-chaplains-against-domestic-violence/

I have some friends in the Sudan, who spend their time travelling from village to educate against FGM. All this and more is out there, if you take the time to look

What I am struggling with, is not that I doubt the honesty of the answer, but I don't understand the content of the answer.

What I have gleaned so far is that the Koran is held to be all that a Muslim needs to know the right path their god wishes them to follow. The Koran is clear and easy to understand. No where did the Muslim god ever demand of his female followers that they cover their face and thus he could not have gone on to demand that women should be punished for failing to cover up.

My understanding of why women 'chose' to do it in the West is thus that it must be an element at least of competitive piety. Women in other countries are not 'choosing' to cover up as they face beatings and death if they don't.

For me, this is the elephant in the room. That a large portion of western Muslim women do not seem to be able to articulate (and more importantly openly abhor) the way their religion has been hijacked by brutal, primitive men who do not accord women equal status as human beings.

Spero, it's not racist or Islamaphobic to ask women who choose to wear a specific garment. But, when they give an honest answer, and the reply is a brazen statement saying their views don't matter and they can't be genuine feminists, well then it at the very least "skirts the margins," if not more, imho.

To some extent I agree with Posie. The really difficult thing for me in this debate is how I don't see Muslims in the West criticising the barbaric things done to women in other countries in the name of their religion.

I know that genital mutilation and covering of the face are not required in the Koran but many Muslim societies demand such practices from their people, as good Muslims.

why isn't there more of an outcry against this sort of thing? Why will women in France martyr themselves in the civil courts formthe 'right' to cover their face but not march in protest at the brutal and degrading treatment of their sisters in Afghanistan?

Or are these protests happening and they arebjust not reported because the Western media is, I agree, biased against Muslims?

I dontnknow, but I suspect protests are simply not widespread.

I do not think it is racism, trolling or Muslim bashing to ask these women who freely chose to wear a garment so indelibly linked for most western women with the slavery and oppression of other women to please explain and help us understand what is going on when you cover your face.

nailak - re "your version of Islam"

I don't have a version. What I have said are facts of your religion. Quran is very clear that it is a standalone book. In it, God says that Quran is perfect, complete, fully detailed, and all you need to know to be Muslim - fact. There is no mention of covering faces in the Quran - another fact.

Are you disputing any of this?

What "version" would contradict the above facts?

If you had said "Women wear veil because they want to", there is little to say. However, when you say "They wear it because they believe it is required in Islam", you get to hear the above. Not a "version", but simple truth. You know it, I know it, and so does anyone else who has read the Quran.

And KRITIQ,your post of 21:48:32 is exactly what my reaction to Posie's post was...

Posie,why on earth not?

Are you really sayimg there are no women who are believing Christians/Muslims who are also feminist? Really?

Bollocks Posie. Be fed up. Be offended. Get to know a few other feminists who aren't 'just like you'.

I will add to that that I respect your right to believe that for YOU, religious faith and feminism are incompatible, but you seem to be trying to dictate the "one right way" for others. It's bad enough having MRA types telling folks they're doing feminism wrong. Now this? Geez.

Posie, what gives YOU the absolute right to decide the criteria for being a "real feminist?" How absolutely audacious!

Goth. No it's not trolling, it's requesting that people don't make an open discussion personal.

Obviously the froth is getting in the way of common sense, again, and 'bigot' starts. This sort of hand wringing that stifles discussion.

Erm, I don't believe that I suggested 1.2 billion Muslims were Iranian, did I?

You choose to be Muslim, you choose to follow a rule book, I choose to think it ridiculous.

I'm fed up with people claiming to be feminists when they follow Islam, it offends me. If you stand as a Muslim/Christian/theist of any patriarchal type you cannot be a feminist.