Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

you may recognise women you know by the way the walk but what about a stranger, what is she to everyone else she is faceless, she has no identity this is just what is was designed for to take away a women?s identity to the outside world where it is not important for her to have one

saudi, iran, communities within afganistan, pakistan, eygpt and other parts of the middle east many of these women have no choice, they have very little choice over their lives wearing a niqab is just another way to oppress these women

Nailak - but do you shake your hair in a liberated way when doing so?

Or, do you just put it on your hijab shelf/ hook/whatever, next to your coat and go and make a cup of tea?

Muslim women - not as freaky as you think.

er, posie we all take hijab/jilbab/niaqaab off when inside? it is an outer garment to wear outside?

and ffs who HAS to do anything for their husbands in this country? people can choose to do things because it makes their spouse happy, or because it makes their marriage better if they take each others feelings and views in to consideration, but i doubt that the woman is actually at risk of harm if she doesnt wear hijab?

Spero So you've you've acknowledged (and read) that link, what about the other's I've posted? Twice you've asked for links and twice I've posted them, but you fail to read or engage with them and wonder why I get snotty.

FS Nailak has already spoken of being able to recognize women she knows while wearing niqab, I can too. So these women aren't nameless or anonymous to me or to many others who are familiar with niqab wearers. You statement comes from your own personal perception, but you state it as if it were the absolute truth.

There is no way are knowing exactly what percentage of women are forced to wear it, so it is foolish to talk of the majority of women being forced to wear it. Certainly and definitely, forced veiling should be opposed, just as forced unveiling should be.

Posie - I'm certain that A bigot with a fixation is the worst person to talk about these issues is, but you're still here. The fact you claim to want to empower Muslim women but then deny us any agency in our lives is downright creepy. A thread about Muslim women, with no Muslim women allowed to be on it?!

it is oppressive

it was designed to oppress women, they became invisible to the outside world become just a women with a piece of cloth over her face she is nameless to the outside world

some women have chosen to wear a niqab in countries where they have a choice then no i guess it is not they have made that choice but the vast majority who wear it are forced to there is nothing liberating at that

Sorry, oppression as others see it.

I'm not sure one that wears the garments of oppression is the right person to excuse it. Many great Muslim women all over the world have opposed the Burka on the grounds of feminism.

I spoke to a woman today whose best friend is a Muslim, herself and husband from Iraq. That women has to wear the hijab for her husband, but shakes her hair in a most liberated way as soon as she's inside. I don't think she's unusual, she would much rather not cover.

Spero, what makes me uneasy here is that you seem to suggest that you are "entitled" to explanations from those who have identified as Muslim feminists here, just because you are a novice.

Most of us have benefited from the knowledge and insights of others during our lives and I for one am grateful for those who gave their time, who listened patiently, who explained and helped me understand. I'm also grateful for those who didn't spoon feed me, who challenged me to find things out for myself and even chided me for expecting to have it all laid out on a plate for me.

If you genuinely want to learn, you'll put in the grunt work to find things out. Unfortunately, there are alot of folks who purport to be interested in learning, but they are really more intent in taking up alot of people's time, of questioning the detail of every sentence, of arguing minor points while ignoring the primary ones, of getting very indignant when folks can't understand why they haven't yet "grasped" concepts which have been thoroughly explained and referenced.

In my experience, their goal isn't to learn or change. They have firmly held beliefs about an issue, whether they are willing to admit it or not. They are just looking for "evidence" to back up what they believe and in particular, to refute contrary arguments. Some even get a buzz out of frustrating and winding up those they claim to want to learn from.

Now, I'm not saying that you are like that. I am only describing this phenomenon because I am pretty sure that nailak, GothAnn and pretty much every feminist who contributes regularly here will recognise what I've described above. How are they supposed to know if you are "genuine," or if you are yet another person just looking for an excuse to abandon feminism and blame feminists for "pushing you out," or in this case, "not helping you" in your learning.

For me, the measure of sincerity would be gratitude towards those who've shared their experiences and insights, acceptance that they don't have endless time and energy to teach and guide a novice and a willingness to do your own grunt work. Oh, and not getting shirty when you don't get the answers you want or when someone says, "perhaps you should go look into that for yourself."

O and cheers for the 'derailing for dummies' link.

Really makes me warm to the quality of your arguments and the depth of your engagement.

Sarcastic emoticon.

Goth, I understand your frustration if you feel you ate being asked to explain over and over again but the real value of sites like this ,IMO, is that we can have almost real time discussion and engagement with real people about issues alien to us.

I often read the response 'o not this again, why don't you just search the archives' and I think that is missing the point.

I would like to ask my questions my way to get an answer hopefully I will understand.

If it upsets you that much, why not just post some links at the beginning and say, here's some basics for those new to this. The Feminism 101 is a very good example of that.

You may get pissed off by covering old ground but I also get pissed off being told my queries are tediously familiar. Well, they are not to me.

because seriously if there is racism in a family or fgm practiced in a family, how is an organisation going to help, more then individuals who are educated within that family speaking up?

there are organisations as anne has pointed out, but also these people are less likely to listen to outsiders and would be suspicious of organisations telling them what to do. the best way to stop fgm is people of our generation just saying no mum i will not mutilate my daughter. and many have started to do that. the reason being is the islamic revival and fight against culture led faith which i have previously talked about, and them realising that fgm is not from shariah and there is no benefit in it.

shariah does mention female circumcision, the description comes with a less is more warning and it is similar to the surgical procedure of clitoral hood removal, www.islamqa.com/en/ref/82859/female%20circumcision.

many muslims join amnesty international and spread their press releases, for the issues of stonins etc? there doesnt need to be a specific musllim organisation when there is amnesty international which reaches such a large amount of people, has such a high profile, and can exert pressure

www.amnesty.org/en/campaigns/stop-violence-against-women

Goth, thanks for that link. I really like the BigSister website that is linked to it via Shaista Gohir.

It was interesting to read on the mythbuster page that many of the ideas that disempower women in Islamic teaching were the interpretation of one man, Abu Huraryah. A bit like the Christian St Paul and his silly anti-women nonsense.

To me it just shows that all religions are subject to interpretation and there is so much confusion between the essential truth of the religion itself and the prejudices of society at the time that the men wrote down the texts and that inevitably comes through.

It is interesting to see how Muslim feminists seek to advance women's rights through a better interpretation of Islamic texts, rather than reject the religion entirely. IMO, that's pretty optimistic and I hope they succeed.

Spero - I know you are well intentioned, but you must remember that this is not the first burqa thread on MN, it's not even the 10th. And on every single thread people ask the same questions, do the same inability to Google, over and over again.

Shall I tell you something, I don't enjoy these threads. I don't think any Muslim MNer does. It is time consuming and so tedious. But the alternative is allowing the ignorance and dislike to fester and having experienced that far too often in RL, I feel like I have to combat it, even though I'd much rather be doing other things.

Please read this and have a think about it: www.derailingfordummies.com/#educate

P.S I would argue that media representation of Muslims is sub optimal for a variety of reasons, let's be honest, the media representation of anyone who isn't a rich white man is crap.

P.P.S You may find this to be of interest www.mwnuk.co.uk/content.php?id=82

Sorry, Goth I will go back to your posts and check again. I did go to one link about why women covered, but it seemed to be mostly poetry and musings - but still interesting.

Kritiq - of course, if there was world enough and time I could spend hours researching and reading. But I don't have enough time, that is why I come on threads like this because I am hoping to make use of the intelligence and knowledge of others who can give me a precis or point me to some other info.

I am puzzled as to why there seems to be this irritation with providing information and having a debate.

Nalik - I am sure there are many informal ways women are trying to raise awareness etc. But I am interested as to why there don't seem to be more organised and 'formal' ways of protesting against the stonings in Iran, Afghanistan, Nigeria etc, the enforced FGM in Somalia etc, the treatment of women in Pakistan etc, etc. The only evidence I see of formal and organised protests is about things like banning the veil in France.

I don't want to be accused of smearing Muslims or Muslim bashing - because I honestly don't think I do and would be upset if that is how you perceived me - BUT do you understand how this kind of reporting/lack of reporting makes me suspicious that Muslim women may feel afraid to come out and condemn the kinds of practices enshrined in sharia law? The only widespread protests appear to be AGAINST any kind of attempt to remove/dilute impact of sharia.

Is that just my misperception/consequence of Western biased reporting, or do I have a point?

So cote I looked it up and there are hadiths that. Say those who drown have the status of martyr...

Spero - Did you not read the link I posted here? It had links to several groups.

I'm pretty generous about all patriarchal religions, which is pretty much all, when it comes to criticism.

Posie, you may be fed up of people who claim to follow Islam. I'm not. I'm fed up on people dictating what makes a feminist to other feminists.

I don't know much about Islam, but I would believe that the Qu'ran is open to interpretation, depending on the reader, and the environment it's read in. I know that's the way my mother taught me to read the bible as a child.

Talking of which, wouldn't you say Chrisitanity is pretty oppressive of women, if you take it at face value? Just something to consider, if you're going to criticise Islam.

cote - i have never heard of this, Allah is with the oppressed, regardless of religion, i will research this.

also an intepretation of the word secular could mean lack of religion in public life, and if you view it this way, by not wearing hijab etc Turks are secular as they view their faith as a matter of private conviction and do not display it through outward symbols?

messy personally i would say that both womens sexuality (within marriage/home) and intellectual ability are enshrined in Islam, it is recognised in Islam that women have desires and this is natural, and they should be able to fulfill these desires in a halal way (ie marriage)

unfortunately i would say that patriarchal islam, and muslim communities struggle on both these issues. for example a women couldnt tell her parents that she wishes to get married as she wants to fulfil her desires in a halal way instead of being constantly tempted.

Intellectualy there is a commandment for all Muslims to seek knowledge, although some muslim communities cant see the point in educating women as they are expected to be "only" sahm's, they say for educating kids etc women need only basic education, women shouldnt go to mixed environments unneccessarily to study (although i am not sure why men can ).

so tbh muslim cultures differ greatly, and i am not that familiar with turkish muslims (ie i dont know any) but the issues there are likely to be different from the issues in the subcontinent/ arabia/ africa/ indonesia etc

spero those who are trying to raise awareness often do it in a different, less formal manner, ie through fb pages, through discussions in circles or with family etc, and not neccessarily through organisations. although i am sure isocs play a part.

Well, KRITIQ, maybe it's not so clear to you

From the second she arrived on this thread, Goth has been going on about how Muslims are always attacked on these threads although there had been none of that here. She is still in an aggressive/defensive posture, with strange comments like "Does she have a name?" as if I would make up a detailed lie about the kidnap, torture, and murder of Muslim feminist.

I thought it was obvious to everyone, but maybe not to you.

Spero, with respect, you can surely do your own research. Just because what you wanted didn't turn up on the first few links in Google doesn't mean the information isn't out there to be found.

I'm getting this weird sense that some people believe they are entitled to not only use Muslim Feminists as guinea pigs to justify, deny or refute whatever they've heard about Islam, but also entitled to use them as an inexhaustible source of information on Islam (whether or not they genuinely want to learn from them.)

Feeling quite sick from reading this thread.

Cote, you said that "everyone can see that you are overly sensitive on this subject."

Can you please not presume to speak for everyone here? Frankly, I would never do that regardless of whether the subject matter were thorny or mundane.

My perspective on what is happening is very different from yours. I see women who have identified as Muslim here being expected to explain, ustify or refute every anecdote and factoid that anyone throws them about Islam.

We get that here with some of the "deliberate derailers" and MRA's, picking and picking at people with questions about feminism. One one could be forgiven for thinking their intention is not to learn, but to revile feminism and feminists. This is looking just the same to me.

I agree that most people/women are apathetic, I am not singling out Muslim women as having a particular duty to protest or be informed. But those who chose to veil must surely understand they are adopting a very particular and visible symbol?

I have tried to inform myself about what British Muslim women say about the hi jacking of their religion. I googled 'British Muslim women protest' and the top result is French Muslim women protesting against ban on veil!

There isn't anything on the first page of results to indicate to me that there is sustained protest from British Muslims about the hijack and perversion of their religion. Please do link me to particular groups that will help me be better informed and understand more.

Just spent 45 mins reading this thread beginning to end- good to see that prejudice against Islam is alive and well!!

Always so interesting to see how a debate on a specific topic descends into general 'discussion' about the rights and wrongs of the religion.

By the way, everyone can see that you are overly sensitive on this subject, but if you really think I am "smearing Muslim" here, you need to work on this.

I am not saying anything that is not true. Talking truth albeit unpleasant truth is not "smearing". And I wouldn't smear Muslims if you wanted me to, because most of my friends and family are Muslims.