Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

and i am sorry that your family is suffering, i hope along with people in tunisia, egypt, iran and other countries the people get what they are fighting for freedom

i never said i was an expert

i also never said that they controlled the country i said in some countries they control areas, sorry if i am wrong about syria. i have read reports of areas that stay very traditional and women are suffering from oppression of the traditions both religious and cultural and the impression i got was that in these areas conservative clerics (i never said fundamentalists) hold power

as for the political issue yes i have seen the news, yes i do know that those fighting for freedom are not fighting for a government like saudi but for a government that allows people to have a choice how they live their life and feminist views in the west are different from those in the middle east. i have lived in a muslim country (tunisia), have family who are muslim i am not totally ignorant i understand the differences in culture and what we perceive as freedom is different i was not addressing the political struggles (as in the over throwing the governments) that are going on in these countries at the moment

I am curious as I know no one without a debit card.

that is always the way until someone or a group highlight the suffering. her books are very interesting she challenges her own culture and western misconceptions of views on Muslim women in particular arab culture and women

Forkful - why is it any of your business?

Noooooo! Conservative Muslim clerics do NOT run Syria. Do you not watch the bloody news?

You ignorant woman. Read about Syrian politics Anyone suspected of being too religious was removed by the authorities and never seen again. Google Tadmor prison massacre.

Stupid statements like this make so angry. My family in Syria are currently going through hell, over 3000 people dead and yet people remain ignorant.

And before any scumbag comes on here and claims it's better for Syrians to murdered in the streets like animals because they'd be religious fundamentalists, if they were allowed to choose their own government, you couldn't be more wrong. They just want a democracy, a government which doesn't steal and squander the money of the people and freedom of speech. I promise you, the vast majority of Muslims do Not look at Saudi and think "That's what we want to be like".

Algerian govt also is not religious (in 1992, an Islamic party was set to win an election. The election was cancelled). Oman is an unelected monarchy...

Knowing Nawaal El Saadawi does not make you an expert.

nailak - why haven't you got a debit card?

then again i do not know the name of every atheist feminist writer...

her novels are good too especially God Dies By The Nile

but who are you mixing with middle class educated women this does nto represent all women from these countries

i am genuinely shocked that you have not heard of her she is one of the leading feminist of the last 50 years and the leading egypitian feminist and probably many would consider her the most important muslim feminist. she now lives in america as her life was in danger living in egypt as she was so out spoken against the government and in particular fgm

yes they are and on ebay and amazon

And didn't the sheykh in al azhar force a girl to take her niqaab off? And yvonne ridley said he tried to force her to shake his hand?

That's just it I am not aware, as a Muslim I go to talks where I here syrians tell me how ladies wearing niqaab were dragged out of Masjid and not allowed to teach, I know yemenese women and none wear niqaab, and so many Pakistanis whose family disapproved of them wearing niqaab. Has that nawaal got books on eBay?

I agree if forced it is oppresive

iran, yemen, egypt , pakistan, algeria, syria, oman countries or areas where very conservative muslim clerics rule. these women really have very little control over their lives, who they marry and when really wearing a niqab is highly unlikely to be a choice when such pressure is put on her to keep the family honour it may not be enforced by law but do they really have a choice.

maybe read some literature by the amazing nawal el saadawi on the lives of many of these women how many are making such choices that to you and i we take for granted but i am sure you are well aware already

i know the subject is jumped on by those who love to bash islam but there are many women suffering is the islamic world, they are forced to wear it so they are faceless to the outside world in the extreme their eyes are covered too and these women are so often forgotten when this debate comes up but this is where the attention should be turned to and there suffering not the those who have the choice and why they make that choice

I think that in the society we live in there is access to help for those who are abused. I know there are cases where the abuser physically limits access to outside world so in these cases there is no choice. In other cases I suppose the woman has been broken down so much she loosed the ability to stand up for herself, or see what is happening, or she submits to the pressures to stay. Is this the case in your friends friend?

I was wrong in my comment, it was ill considered, however once a woman has the strength she can leave and the law will protect her. Actually she doesn't even need to leave, one of the mums at school got a restraining order of some sort to prevent her husband coming in to her bedroom after police prosecuted him for dv, although she didn't want to press charges.

But I still think it is her choice to stay as if she chose she could leave and she has been given tools and support to do so.

oh no - you don't get to turn my carefully considered "sometimes from the woman's body language (subservient/not confident) I am so so sad for them"

into "So if a woman is veiled and husband is western dress you assume opression?" No. No. No. No. No.

did you see my question "seriously? you don't think there are people (or all or no faiths) in this country who HAVE to do things for their husbands? "

rookery that was very interesting - I guess the recognising individuals is something which you have tuned in to.

Do you really think that these women have a completely free choice?

So if a woman is veiled and husband is western dress you assume opression? Thank you for that insight, would it apply only to veiled women or those otherwise dressed in hijab etc?

I am going to tell my husband so I can encourage him to wear thobe. It's bad for dawah wearing jeans love, never mind that bush on your face....

But are we talking about how a garment was historically used, or its current use? It's effects on societies in the past or present?

And I am still under the impression Saudi and Afghanistan are the only places it is enforced? Please provide evidence for Egypt and Pakistan as I am ignorant of this and so is every Pakistani I have met. My sils sis wears niqaab in front of bil in Pakistan and this caused a contraversy and family issues. I have never met her or been there.

rookery thank you for your sensible attitude and input, your post made me smile and say mashallah. Can I ask you how you feel these women are limited or seperated from society? Do they participate in pta, school events, governor's more or less then those who don't veil? From those you are friendly with, is there any common educational level or do any work?

nailak and ffs who HAS to do anything for their husbands in this country? people can choose to do things because it makes their spouse happy, or because it makes their marriage better if they take each others feelings and views in to consideration, but i doubt that the woman is actually at risk of harm if she doesnt wear hijab?

seriously? you don't think there are people (or all or no faiths) in this country who HAVE to do things for their husbands?

you are being naive in the extreme - you need to take a look on the relationships board here and read up on male priviledge and women's position in marriage.

I totally accept that this is not the case for you but when I see women out shopping faces covered accompanied by men in western dress then sometimes from the woman's body language (subservient/not confident) I am so so sad for them and I wonder about their home life.

I am one of the few white non-Muslim parents at my dc's school and when we first moved here I was a bit daunted by seeing so many women wearing a niqab, so I did what you do when you go to a new school: looked people in the eye, said hello and struck up conversation. I don't know every mother at school now (who does?) but there are plenty of niqab-wearing school mums who I recognise when I pass them in the street. You only have to pay attention - say hello, listen, look at people's faces. The idea that the niqab veils identity is daft: everyone carries themselves differently, wears different shoes, different veils. And everyone's eyes are different, for goodness sake. Women wear the niqab in different ways. Women wear make up in different ways (and don't get me started on heels). Sometimes it's oppressive, sometimes it isn't. Now I live in and participate in a community where many women are publicly veiled, I am ashamed of my old attitude (and assumption that it was automatically oppressive). My mum picked up the dcs one day and asked me if the other children would recognise their own (veiled) mothers and I reeled. Of course they do, and there's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to at the very least distinguish between women as long as I make the effort to interact rather than slap on a one-size-fits-all judgement.

what a women who wears it through choice she can also choose to stop wearing but yes she will talk about not being a slave to fashion, to being a sexual being to other men but she has a choice many many women do not have that choice

was it designed by women, enforced by women no it was by men, slave masters used it to to keep their women safe from being raped rather keep their virginity so they were more profitable to sell and in other communities the wealthy women wore it while the women who were slaves didn't to identify there were slaves. not sure how that is freeing to women in anyway

btw fs if choice is taken away it is definitely an oppression

anne unfortunately the tea gets left until after sorting out the kids, which seems to take ages, and recently i was fed up of hijabs everywhere and the door lookin messy so bought hooks of ebay so now the door looks slightly less messy...

the only sister i know in saudi is a white revert who is married to a white revert, she works teaching english.

she has a choice to be there or not, but would rather be in saudi then here?

which parts of pakistan are people forced to wear niqaab? and which other countries in arabia apart from saudi? surely in egypt niqaab isnt required?

often women i see who wear niqaab i dont actually know them properly, they are like mums on the school run etc, so i have never seen their face, but instead of looking at them and saying they are faceless, i am a stranger or whatever i had a brain to know they have a face and a personality, and opinions? and i recognise them by their clothes, ie what type of niqaab, what hijaab, as well as their eyes, and height etc

i dont understand how they dont have an identity? do i not have an identity to you as you cant see my face? if you speak to someone via phone/email only do they not have an identity?

"Muslim women - not as freaky as you think"

Quick, get that on a teeshirt, or even a hijab! [hgrin]

FS - not to me. I do not determine someone's personhood based on fabric. Go and read something by a niqab wearer and find out what she thinks of her identity.