Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

Khula? means the separation of the wife in return for a payment; the husband takes the payment and lets his wife go, whether this payment is the mahr which he gave to her, or more or less than that????

i dont know if it does or doesnt. all i know is that most of its work benefits women as it provides them with khula.

Please tell me Sharia council has no jurisdiction in law.

Kritiq, I agree completely. And once again those choices impact on the environment of every other woman and the regard in which she is held.

Kritiq, completely agree. That's why I am happy to have finally coherently ordered my thought process. I will be equally upset if my daughter comes home wearing a burkha or high heels and a basque - because I wont feel confident in either case that she is dressing in a way which is for HER rather than to please/appease those around her.

Well, and in a fairly similar way, perhaps women wear revealing clothing because they think this is what men want or they are scared about male reaction if they don't.

Sorry if that seems a tangent, but it is a theme my colleagues and I seem to be constantly fighting with the girls and young women we work with. They seem to police each other's behaviour, attire and make up (dissing or cutting off those who aren't "doing it right,") but if you ask, they'll say they look that way because they want to and in the same breath, admit that they're afraid boys won't fancy them if they don't look right or do the right things. This just takes up SO much of their brain space it seems, when there is so much more they could be doing to stretch their horizons. (rant over.)

Messy, thanks very much for link, this is why I LOVE the Internet. It is so lovely reading something so well expressed and which says what I think so much better than I could.

This had been very helpful. I have always been very uneasy about women who cover their faces, but it is sometimes hard to articulate and untangle your own thoughts - do I dislike robes because I am anti Islam? Am I a Muslim bashed? Do I simply come from a position of ignorance and privilege?

I am now confident I have fully explored my feelings and they are based on reason. This isn't an Islamic problem, it's a male problem. I think women cover up because they think this is what men want or they are scared about male reaction if they don't. And I definitely think it is oppressive.

Spero, loving the fatalfeminist website. [hsmile] Did you read this article? nonconsensualsexualization. It's just so relevant for any girl growing up in any patriarchal culture.

yeah i said if forced they are oppressive?

i think the issue in france might have been hijab rather than niqaab in courts?

have you seen the london shariah councils website and are you aware of the work it does?

and some believe the religion does require it.

And this is ace

thefatalfeminist.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/islam-headscarves-and-men-who-need-to-see-their-way-out/

I've only got half an eye on Shameless in order to improve my knowledge - this is a significant sacrifice on my behalf, so I hope I will get credit for that at least.

Nailik, why did some women in France refuse to go into court while their appeals were being heard because they had to take off their robes?

And now we are at the nub of it: the religion doesn't require it, yet some women would refuse to take it off unless it was a 'life or death' situation??

And if they will 'not be allowed' to leave the house unless wearing it, isn't it the attitude of those not 'allowing' them we need to target?

Still don't get it. You have just outlined why these garments are so oppressive.

But this is interesting thefatalfeminist.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/figments-of-patriarchal-imagination-the-testimony-of-two-women-equals-one-mans/

oh and its no big conspiracy, just i only have basic bank account, and that doesnt offer debit card facilities,

if you want to know something really weird dh doesnt even have a bank account, all the money just comes to me

just to let you know shariah requires a woman to take of her niqaab while in court...

and what you are suggesting would lead to some people not taking their kids to school and home schooling instead, and not going to hospital unless life or death situation.

and those who are being forced would have less contact with outside world as would probably not be allowed to leave their house.

I actually agree with Nailik. To take away choice IS an oppression but we have to make some tough decisions about what oppression is necessary for a society to function. The rights of your fist end where my nose begins etc.

To decide who or what's so damaging that it should be oppressed we need to have clear discussion.

I think I am now coming down in favour of banning face covering in public places as I think that does make it more difficult for society to function if we don't show our faces in courts, schools, hospitals etc. This would apply to motor cycle helmets, balaclavas and similar, not just robes.

Nailak you said "if choice is taken away it is definitely an oppression"

I disagree with this statement. There are many choices that are taken away from us and we do not consider it oppressive, but accept that it is for the good of society as a whole. For example, we legislate against hate speech - does this oppress our freedom of speech? We legislate against public nudity - is this oppressive?

I think vezzie has a very good point. Women wearing the niqab, whether by choice or not, do not exist in a vacuum. They are part of a wider community. And like it or not, their individual choice affects that community as a whole, normalising and making mainstream the mentality and attitude behind the veil.

It could mean that other Muslim women feel cultural pressure to wear one. It could mean that non-Muslim women feel intimidated and awkward.

I agonise about expressing this because anti-niqab remarks are often a way of making racially motivated anti-Islam remarks. But I don't like the niqab. Not because I have a view on whether the women wearing it are individually oppressed (any more or less than any other woman under patriarchy) - how would I know that? - but because I don't like the effect that it has on the world for me.

It's a small thing and not worth getting het up over - in most contexts I would hesitate to express it because my minute first-world-problem is not as important or damaging as the racially motivated abuse suffered by many Asian muslims in the UK. But when I shop, as I often do near my house, in a shop where everyone else is either a man or fully covered up, I feel exposed and vulnerable. I feel that I am suddenly in a culture where my body is indecent and this makes me shy. I feel as if I were in Tesco in a bikini. This doesn't really matter as I am only buying bread and bananas and going home - but it might if I got the wrong change and had difficulty challenging it, or something like that. I feel a heightened sense of the usual background threat that you had better bloody be without any physical or moral flaws if you are a woman and you need to stand up for yourself. It's tiny and it's trivial but that is how it is.

What I really want to say is that your right to wear what you like does not exist in a vacuum. I don't want to stop any individual wearing what he or she likes but it is simplistic to pretend it has no effect on anyone else.

In such an environment I can see how it might be individually empowering to wear a niqab. I certainly feel very unempowered not in one. What does that mean though?

Well said posies. The choices we make as an individual can impact on others far beyond our immediate families and friends. That's why I will continue to feel 'entitled' to ask for information and engage in discussion.

That they do, K, and with that comes consequence. Perhaps we all, belonging to a patriarchal society, do things for men at least the original instruction was from men. But covering up not only seems subservient but it's divisive and destructive for both the individual, group and society. Bit like any uniform, whether it's stripper like, Neo Nazi or any other clothing/garment that says a lot more about a person than what clothing they like. IE. Today I'm wearing brown leather boots, grey knitted top up to my neck, jeans and a nice belt, I have my hair up and curly (quite glam) and make up on. What this says about me is that I take care of myself and that's it, no political allegiance or religious, you possibly can tell I'm not below the poverty line or very very wealthy. And you know I'm white European, not necessarily British.

Oh c'mon, old fart feminists like me can remember when feminists called each other sister. It's also common for African American women to refer to each other as "sister" because it's a cultural tradition, but not intended to make non African Americans feel left out or bad.

Whether one refers to groups or tribes or clans or interests or communities or what have you, we do fall into some of these and that isn't inherently wrong, surely.

I see lots of women wearing clothes "for men" - all styles, because within a patriarchy, women do not have full agency in decisions they make. This is kind of known, right?

Even the word 'sister' is tribal. Or should I refer to non Muslims as my sister?

And I know women don't have to cover inside unless there's a man who needs protecting from his lust. When you strip this garment to it's bare bones it's sexist, it's not about women, it's about women wearing it for men. It's sexist.

Forkful, I am sure that some of the niqab-wearing women I know are oppressed. Some of them aren't. I guess what I'm saying is that I can't make that assumption based on what they're wearing. (BTW I know the arguments on the thread are rigorous and complex - I'm just responding from my own limited experience to the OP. Haven't got the time to read the whole thread now but I'm looking forward to getting to it later).

Thanks to my auto correct I now have no idea what word I wanted instead of 'start'. Feel free to insert whatever word you feel most comfortable with.

Hmmmm. Interesting. Seems some of us can't win. If we ask for information, this suggests we are too lazy to look for it ourselves or seek it from a sense of 'entitlement'.

I have been reading lots of stuff thanks goth, on here and on Facebook. And this thread, like so many on mums net has been excellent and helpful in helping me to articulate my true unease about women who cover up.

Perhaps I can share something from my field of expertise.

the Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill had it's first reading in the House of Lords in June 2011. It's explicit aim is to stop sharia courts claiming to have jurisdiction in family and criminal matters because sharia law discriminates against women, allowing a women's testimony only half the weight of a mans.

The way Muslim men interprets islam discriminates against and oppresses women. Covering the head and face is another example of this and it makes me very uneasy.

I am not 'entitled' to an explanation as to why intelligent women then chose to cover up, even though it is NOT a requirement of their faith - but I am certainly interested to know more about why. Engage or not, it's your choice. But I haven't come knocking at your door and sat myself down on your sofa, refusing to leave. You have chosen to engage with me on a public site.

So it's a bit rich to accuse me of being start and entitled.

For what it's worth, I thought the debit card question was rather 'off ' like a fishing expedition, in this context. My exH never had one.