Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

Norman, alot of marketing bucks go into convincing Western women that they "need" expensive, constrictive products and services to be "acceptably feminine," whether it's waxing, crippling footwear, toxic lotions and potions or cosmetic surgery. In my great gran's day, it was corsets laced so tight they cause internal organ damage and restricted breathing and movement.

Basically, just because something is spun and hard sold to us as prettifying and feminising and a "free choice," doesn't mean it's any of the above.

I'm sure they do and my friends who wear hijab wear loads of eye-makeup and dye their hair etc - though definitely no skinny jeans.

Oh FGS

posie is right, im sure a lot of women in "burka" have skinny fit jeans on.

Make up and hijabs are not mutually exclusive, neither high heels or tight jeans.

yes because high heels aren't uncomfortable and restrictive, seems like a way to make women conform and chain them to me. I have friends who can't be seen without a full face of make-up, it would be really unsettling and upsetting for them. Why do they feel this way?

I can't quite believe I am reading this..

But surely you cannot be saying to me that fashion - high heels, short skirt etc. is just our version of the Burka?

If your teenage daughter started wearing a burka at the instigation of her boyfriend you would think ' oh it's the patriarchy at work again, at least she's not wearing high heels'?

Bull. Shit.

Thinking women's bodies are so toxic they have to be covered at all times is not equivalent to women adopting makeup, high heels etc even though that is to some extent part of our Western patriarchal ( yet relatively equal and liberal ) culture.

Some might argue that the "need" (for some, not all women) to wear make up is indeed oppressive. It also "covers" the human face.

In fact wearing a hijab, and a loose cover all type clothing could be quite liberating (as long as it's not forced on you of course) from feeling you have to conform to western standards of beauty.

The choice to wear what you like is the same. Each is pre conceived by the male ideology.

If you think that CHOOSING a mini skirt is a decision made all by yourself and not what is a pre conceived idea then you are misled by the fashion industry.

in some ways i don't think it is that different from women feeling they have to wear sexy clothes, wear make up, shave and wax, wear high heels etc to be accepted.

I can't accept that wearing a short skirt is the same as wearing a burka. It is not.

Covering a human being's face - on the basis that they have certain genitalia - is not the same as a woman choosing a short skirt to attract men.

My father is Arabic and a Muslim and I was raised and lived in an Islamic country for most of my life.

To cover from head to toe "to please men" is no different to wearing a skirt only a few inches long "to please men".

Both sides would argue it isn't to "please men".

Banning the niqab is still telling women what they can and can't wear. I don't cover, unless visiting elderly relatives "back home" where I wear only the hijab. Tbh in this day and age it's more to do with culture than it is religion.

"the purpose is to reduce the desire of the woman, which makes her closer to perfection."

Surely, desire is in the head/hormones, not sensitivity of the clitoris or the penis.

All they are achieving by cutting the clitoris is decreasing the pleasure women get from sex. It sounds like a tool of oppression to me.

I find the burkha medieval and I can't accept it as a liberating garment. I just can't. I can't accept that it's okay for women to cover their faces as if strangers seeing their eyes, nose, lips, hair is a dreadful thing. It's inhumane.

As a feminist I also can't accept your T shirt wearing male accompanied by his burka-clad wife.

No amount of religious justification or cultural relativism can change my mind. It is wrong

"in hot climates woman without this procedure randomly have strong desires when going about their day to day business"

That is one of the weirdest things I have ever heard mentioned on an Internet forum, and that is against some competition! What now, when it's hot outside, us women get insatiably horny, like the proverbial bitch in heat???

I agree with all you said on this subject. FGM is completely indefensible, less so than male circumcision which at least leads to better hygiene and protects against penile cancer and HIV transmission.

Haj & zakat are widely talked about in the Quran although I don't remember to which detail. Of course, there is tradition re how exactly Muslims pray etc that was supposedly detailed by Mohammad.

My DGM doesn't wear the hijab now but she used to, apparently, because her father expected her to. Then she married my DGF, who expected her not to, and she hasn't worn it since. None of it very feminist, I'm afraid

Quran is actually very clear that God expects Muslim women to wear the hijab/headscarf. It is also very clear that he doesn't expect women's faces to be covered. This is actually corroborated by the Hadith, since you are such a fan, where Mohammad apparently said everything should be covered except hands and face.

So, going back to the subject of this thread, I reiterate that there is absolutely no valid religious reason to cover one's face.

I think you actually have a point about the fgm, it is possible that he meant to lessen the harm, as he knew he couldnt stop it, that is an interesting perspective for me to explore further.

Also fgm is one of the things i have been discussing on muslim forums, we are all agreed pharonic curcumcision is a terrible assault on any girl, the sunnah circumcision is clitoral hood reduction, which is also done as a cosmetic procedure. The effect of this procedure is to expose the clitoris and cause increased arousal for the woman. however islamic fatwa sites such as islam q and a state the purpose is to reduce the desire of the woman, which makes her closer to perfection.

firstlt i dont understand how it could reduce desire, the answer given was in hot climates woman without this procedure randomly have strong desires when going about their day to day business :s so i dont understand then if we accept this as true that this would be a sunnah for people not living it hot climates.

anyway i am not convinced of that.

secondly i dont understand why a woman would reduced desire would be closer to perfection.

my first instinct was to argue that any husband would prefer a wife would increased desire, why would you want to have to pester your wife for sex when she could have a healthy sex drive which has been diminished, that is a bit weird and rape like,

then due to my exposure to feminist thought i realised this is still valuing a woman through a mans eyes, if you understand what im saying, and surely a womans worth is more then that, so how would it benefit the woman if she has lower desire?

so how does that effect the way we pray, the way we do zakat, halal our meat, do haj etc? because it is all based on hadith? how could we be a muslim without hadith? and if your gm didnt wear hijab as she believed Quran was complete, then how did she know how to pray?

Hi nailak - Sorry, I didn't mean to desert you. RL got busy and when I checked back on this thread, it looked a bit scary tbh.

Why would you like to ask me? To clarify, it was my DGF (not DGM) who was the hajji although DGM is also very devout and was doing her daily prayers until her knees failed her.

It is not my personal belief that Quran is complete, perfect, and all you need to know to be a good Muslim. It is what Quran says. Surely you know this better than I do, and I hope you won't make me search for quotes.

Also, it is not that I don't "believe in" Hadith. My point is that they are not even hearsay but Chinese whispers. Who knows which of them Mohammad actually said or did?

For example, did he really condone FGM? Even if that quote is correct, why should it mean that girls' genitals should be cut now? Maybe he said it because he knew he couldn't just make them stop the tradition of FGM so hoped to at least lessen it.

Actually, these debates have actually given me a good understanding of issues related to feminism, that need to be addressed and questioned within Muslim communities, and have led to me making and responding to threads on Muslim forums with renewed perspective and understandings of the issues, so I am able to express my thoughts and feelings in a more effective manner.

So thanks for your perspectives, it helps me develop.

Erm, if someone talks about Islam being good for women regarding the Sharia Council and then that council is shown to be most anti women. That council has supposed pro women actions that can only be so because some Islamic scriptures are even more anti women what do you suppose one does? Ignore it?

I'm not sure the purpose of a feminist discussion about wearing something, that for most, is a symbol of oppression that we must thank people for their POV. I'm not sure anyone's take on wearing the Burka would make me change my mind, that is not the reason for debate. Just the same as women who wear it don't thank me for my perspective. What an odd request.

I'm pretty sure Goth you don't politely tread around the boards thanking people for their point of view.

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