Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

try here alex www.igotitcovered.org/

That was an interesting read, GothAnneGeddes, thanks for that.

What I find missing from all of this is some explanation as to WHY women who choose to wear the burqua do so. Why choose to hide your face? It is not for religious reasons, as the religion does not require it. (And if it did, I would be asking why women believe it to be true).

Although I have known many Muslim women, (and have had some very lively debates!) I have never known one who covers her face.

I have been on many burqua threads on here, and I have made no secret of being an atheist and coming at the issue from that perspective. But in all these debates no burqua-clad woman has ever really explained her position properly, over than saying it made her feel "closer to god". How Why? I don't get it.

Here is a really good article on what life is like now for Muslim women in France who wear the niqab (face veil). Really worth a read:

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/19/battle-for-the-burqa

For me, it's got nothing to do with the actual clothing, but everything to do with whether it's a genuine free choice or something that has been forced on a women, either by law or cultural expectations.

And because the wearing of these items is so tied up in cultural expectations, I don't think it's possible to get a clear picture on whether a woman is being oppressed or liberated. Even within a single society, one women might find it oppressive, and another find it liberating.

I'd like to cover up more than I do, I think it would be very liberating. But I'm not a muslim, so it would be 'weird' There's a cultural expectation on me not to cover myself up.

So, there's no easy answer, and until all women are free from oppression of any kind, we'll never know.

Spero, there are also countries such as Algeria, France, turkey etc where a woman would. Find it hard to get an education or job in niqaab / hijaab.

And of course any feminist would say those being forced are oppressed, even those who choose to wear niqaab would say that if a woman was in fear of her life if she didn't wear it then it is an oppression.

But is it an oppression or is it possible to be w liberation in countries such as uk, pakistan, America etc where they have choice and culturally do not wear Burka / niqaab

I don't mind what women wear as long as it is their own choice, not what is foisted upon them by men using religion or their own views to force matters either way. The thing is it has to be the woman's choice. Nobody else has the right as far as I am concerned.

There was a very good cartoon in the Sunday Times last year, showing two women walking down the street. One was fully covered with only a tiny slit for her eyes, the other wearing hardly anything at all, micro mini, stripper heels etc.

The caption was - which do you find more offensive?

I do find it sad and scary that women will truss themselves up in all sorts of skimpy clothes, if they are doing it out of some feeling of pressure from society at large becausevthis is how women should be, this is how men want to see us.

I agree, as mother of a daughter, this is an issue that needs confronting.

but I think it isn't helpful to automatically conflte the to issues. Women in this country don't risk being beaten or killed if the fail to wear short skirts or show cleavage.

But there are sadly many ountriesin the word where a woman would be beaten or killed if she went out with her face uncovered, if she tried to go to school or stand or parliament etc, etc.

Of course wearing the niqab or burka does not not by itself prove that the wearer is a victim of oppression. But I struggle to think of a single country which both enforces the wearing of facial covering and has a respectable record on treating women like humans. Thus this kind of dress is very clearly linked to issues of oppression, brutality and misogyny.

so do you think it is not possible that a woman puts on nice clothes and make up for herself/other women or nice underwear that noone will see just as it makes her feel good?

or is that internalization of patriarchal oppression again?

DarlingDuck - I do agree with your comment about the two extremes.

Whether getting it all out or covering it all up, you're still letting the issue of 'what men will think' control the way you go about your life, and the image you present to the world.

A proper feminist (with books and stuff) might be able to phrase that better!

If men in those countries where the burkah is worn were forced to wear it for one day see how quickly the burkah would be consigned to history.

If women want to cover themselves up of free choice (and amazingly some do seem to want to be invisible) that's up to them but any man who lays down a rule as to how women should dress should be told to bog off as it's none of their damn business.

KRITIQ, if you think men don't wear scanty clothing, you clearly haven't been to the pub on a hot day.

I live in Brum and often have niqab hypotheticals bouncing round in my head . As you do.

I reckon that on one day a year, ALL women in the UK should just put on a full face-mask/black robe combo, and just go about their business as if nothing unusual was happening. Now that would really fuck with their minds...

How do men dress in Saudi or Oman? I have only seen photographs and videos of men dressed in long white robes with their heads covered.

Now that I think about it, there's also a flip side to the Caitlin Moran comment.

In the UK, women are permitted to wear short skirts, tight blouses, heels, etc., exposing quite alot of flesh. There is no restriction on men wearing similarly scant clothing, but they don't. Why?

Sort of a tangent, but I'm not sure about the Caitlan Moran quote. I haven't read her book and confess I'm not that familiar with her work.

She only has a partial point because there are cultures where men are required/expected to wear head covering (i.e. Sikh men in turbans but no head covering required for women, Orthodox Jewish men in yarmulkes but only married women having head covering - scarf or wig.)

Also, as nailak said, it's generally acceptable for men to be topless in many social settings in the UK, but not for women to be so - so even here, there are some different gender "rules" on what is acceptable and/or sufficiently modest attire.

darling it is said to be the same as why women cant walk around without a top on but men can,

there are still requirements as to what must be covered but the requirements are less, the same as in british law?

the vast majority of muslims do not take the position that face coverings are an obligation, although they do take the position that head covering is an obligation.

why cant you get an education in niqaab? plenty do? in London?

and most of these have to fight against the wishes of their parents and communities to wear it.

i dont know about the countries where women are forced to wear it, i have never been there.

I haven't read the Koran but when I have asked people who have, they say there is a general requirement on everyone to dress modestly and there is no religious dictat to say women MUST cover their faces, or even their heads.

I can only assume therefore that the requirementof some cultures that women cover up is simply a reflection of a patriarchal and misogynistic culture that sees women as the chattels of men and wishes to deny them the benefits of free and full participation in the world in case they get all uppity and ask to get an education or similar.

I saw a family on a beach in Perth once, dad and two little boys in shorts, mum trailing after in full robes, getting bogged down in sand. It was about 35 degrees. Most of people on beach were families, no lustful groups of young men to eye her lustfully.

I really, really don't get how that kind of situation is anything other than oppressive.

A friend of mine spent three months in Afghanistan working with an aid agency. She had to wear one of those blue all encompassing robes - is that the niqab?

It was made of some synthetic material. I put it on for about 20 seconds. I felt like I couldn't breath. To think of wearing it in 40 degree heat was horrifying.

Basically I believe in freedom of speech and freedom to wear what you like. BUT the problem with this type of covering is that for every woman who is making a free informed choice that should be respected, I will bet there is another who is forced to cover up through fear of male disapproval and oppression. And that is what makes me very uneasy.

I think Caitlin Moran has the best take on this. Ask yourself what the men are doing. are men forced to cover their heads and faces in certain countries? No not ever, not anywhere.

And I completely agree about little girls - why do some cultures expect them to cover up? If there is a fear that a six year old can ever be 'immodest' that is just crazy and I think should be vigorously opposed.