Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

Any 'uniform' be it religious or fashion sets you apart from the rest, it's tribalism. The reason that women cover stems from needing to protect me from their lust. Many of my Iranian friends think it's oppressive. British Muslims, especially converts, have no idea what it's like to feel that oppression and so don't associate it with oppression.

yes, i assumed you was aware of that

Goth - Since then, those two women were indeed fined, if you are interested.

but this is not about religion, the patriarchy exists in societies not based on religion,

anything is used as an excuse by the patriarchy to oppress women, not just religion,

and tbh there are plenty of issues where muslim women will argue teeth and nail against muslim men, as they feel they are preventing them from their islamicaly enshrined rights, such as rights to education etc

they will argue against other peoples interpretation of the word of God

I mean South Asia, not South East Asia.

hands down some muslim men are afraid of womens sexuality, and intelligence aswell, and they use this too oppress women and spout viewpoints that sound ridiculous to a lot of muslim women who are educated about another version of Islam, which they believe to be more correct.

The vitamin D issue...

Whatever your skin tone, you cannot get enough vitamin D from sunlight if you live North of Birmingham. You have to get some of your vitamin D from food.

Rickets is more common in children of South East Asian descent than white children in the UK because:

1. Of covering up with clothing.
2. white skin makes it easier to get vitamin D from sun exposure.
3. People of South East Asian descent are more likely to be lactose intolerant and European countries traditionally get a lot of their calcium intake from dairy products.

So it is more of an issue of making sure that people are educated and know that if your child is covered up with clothing or sun cream, you might need to look at your diet or consider taking a supplement.

alex, i think you have to accept that many muslims interpret the verse in the Quran to mean they have to cover there hair/face and they also follow hadith, not only QUran.

sports, are you seriously suggesting that people born and bred here do not contribute to the shaping of the culture?

when people started wearing punk clothing, was that wrong as they werent having the courtesy to conform to culture?

when people in the 70s started wearing mini skirts was that wrong as they werent having the courtesy to conform to culture?

these women are not some kind of foreigners, they are British, most of them born and raised here.

if you were born in a culture in which it was the norm to cover your face, but you didnt want to, then would you conform, or as part of the culture would you think it was fine if you didnt and there was no laws against it?

if there were laws against it and you felt strongly, would you then fight against it?

Riven is right, this is about faith, you won't find logic there. Faith, like love and forgiveness are states of grace that arise spontaneously and cannot be willed into being (I paraphrase Dorothy Rowe).

I am not religious so cannot understand it. But intensely dislike it because of the practical restrictionsitimposes on being able to move about feely, drive a car, feel cool on hot weather, etc, etc.

I am by instinct a libertarian on this issue - neither the state nor the family should dictate what an individual wears.

But, as a logical (I think) person I am also baffled by the motives of those who want to cover up. Why?

Is it because they are modest? Can't be, because the effect of covering up is to draw attention to yourself in the West.

Is it because they want to hide their beauty? If so, why do so many wear eye make up at the same time then?

Is it because they want God"s approval? Surely God has enough on his/her plate what with overseeing wars, starvation and disease to bother about whether someone wears a particular dress?

Is it an overt display of piety? That doesn't fit with modesty.

Against the wearing of it is the possibility of serious vitamin D deficiency and the restrictions on sight and movement, + the security issues involved in hiding your identity.

When I worked in countries where the custom was for women to cover their arms, hair, legs etc. I was careful to have the courtesy to observe their culture. Why does courtesy not extend in the opposite direction? Having said that, my own courtesy would still say if women want to cover it is their right however rude I personally find it.

But what is the attraction and what is the rationale? Can anyone explain the logic, please?

Having had a look at the igotitcovered website, I am still none the wiser.

There is a poem saying "I cover because I am a Muslim" - I assume she means just a headscarf, as a face covering is not required in Islam.

Another article talks about a woman covering because all she cares about is her Lord (I presume it means god). But the message from god as expressed in the quran does not require face covering, so again this makes no sense.

Another article says it is because the woman is able not to care what other people think. I think that covering yourself completely means you care very much. So much so that you keep it all hidden away.

So it still makes no sense to me.

I have no problem with the state imposing basic rules on dress codes. We cannot walk down the street completely naked and in my view being completely covered from head to toe is just the other extreme of that. I simply think the state should legislate against the extremes, but no more than that.

I read an interesting article ages ago saying that wearing sun glasses in doors was a sign of psycopathy!

I don't have any issue with someone wearing sunglasses outside, inside is creepy. But I have found that covering the mouth does make it much more difficult for me to feel comfortable communicating with people.

I have only ever had one client who massively covered up, including gloves when she alone with me in a conference room. I found that very difficult, maybe I am a bit deaf and rely more on lip reading than I thought?

I would much rather email than have a phone conversation, maybe that is part of it.

I had a quick look at the igotitcovered website and I can understand why people chose to cover up if it makes them feel they are submitting to god - I guess nuns habits are pretty similar.

But I think I will remain very uneasy about face coverings for all sorts of reasons. I am equally uneasy about the state imposing bans on what people chose to wear. It's a difficult issue for me. I think I would be very upset if my daughter ever wished to cover up.

Makes lipreading difficult though which wasn't something I had thought of until a friend who lipreads as a way of coping pointed out.

Thanks for the link, that was an interesting article.

But that picture of the two women with Nekkaz I found chilling - that looked even worse than the afghani burkha, how could they even see?

I guess for me it is the covering of the face I find hard to deal with, whether it be by burkha or balaclavas.

When France put their ban in place I wondered how many women were freed from being forced to wear them by their men compared to how many were upset by their losing the chance to wear a covering if they wanted to.