Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

I was simply pointing out what someone, an Iranian academic, had said about Islam.

GothAnneGeddes I am not trying to say that I understand Islam better than Muslim women. What I am saying is that I don't get it. On the one hand I have Muslim women telling me that the full face veil is not required in Islam and the quran does not mention it. On the other hand, I am being told that Muslim women wear it for religious reasons. What are those religious reasons? If the quran doesn't require it, then what makes these women think that god will look on them more favourably (or whatever) if they cover their faces? What gives them this idea? I'm genuinely trying to work it out, I wasn't trying to suggest I know Islam better than Muslim women do.

Riven regarding your reply to Posie - I thought that stoning (for adultery?) and the amputation of the hand for theft was an accepted punishment in Islam. Is that not the case? You hear about these punishments via the media, but I don't know where the rulings come from. Not the quran, then?

I agree about the Old Testament being violent. I don't understand how anyone can worship the god it portrays, there's so much violence and petty jealousies and downright bizarre things.

It's loaded with exactly the same sorts of assumptions that you get on the Feminist board all the time, when people are said to have been indoctrinated into following a certain way of dressing or into feeling that they must wear makeup based on society's expectations.

People say "it's my choice" and others say "you are not making that choice freely" and yet others may say "you making that choice is unhelpful to other women".

(in this case I do not know enough to say if the third part is right but the second certainly is)

This is from an Iranian who has turned his back on Islam, in fact I don't know an Iranian who hasn't.....usually with the pain of be rejected by their family.

What about Mohammed then Riven, was he a peaceful man, as reading the Koran there is a lot of wrath and fury.

Taken from facebook, a discussion about Islam)
(I commented here about Islam has been used by people to persecute, but must bring a lot of joy for many uniting people and so on)
I agree with you and your comment but only as far as the Christianity is concerned. Jesus was a young man who single-handedly stood against the oppressors, inviting people to love each other and cherish life. He was an advocate for the poor and the oppressed. He was never in a position of authority, power nor wealth. He never had an army and never raged a war against any body and yes, his followers, mainly the Catholic Church did. History never forgets the brutality of church through out the Europe and the crusader wars. But, I can not say the same for Mohammed, the founder of Islam. Mohammed in fact was a ruler who established a new regime of governance powered by an Islamic army. He personally raged war against many Arab tribes and non-Muslim citizens who had done nothing but tried to keep up with their own faith. Typically the defenceless, defeated clan had their men killed; their women auctioned off and sold to the higher bidder and their kids taken as slaves if they did not submit to Islam. Unfortunately the life wouldn?t be that easy even if they did submit to Islam. Mohammed successors continued his legacy but at much harsher scale when they raged wars with neighbouring countries, started with Iran, then called Persia ? an Empire with thousands of years history and civilization and the Zoroastrian religion, believing in one god only. Iranians wondered why the savage Arab?s god was any better than theirs considering what Islam army did subsequent to its conquest of Iran.

Today if you see torture, stoning, mutilation, prisoners rape, discrimination of women and other religions? faithful committed by Taliban or other Islamic countries is not invented by the ordinary Muslims rather it was practiced during Mohammed?s reign and in fact, he established them.

Whenever I see a woman walk past wearing the full burka, something inside me dies.

Trills - Niqab wearers will show their faces at the request of security people, I've never heard otherwise. In fact I'm a bit worried that you think the world is so supposedly pandering to niqab wearing women that they would get away with not showing their faces.

What is more then necessary? And how exactly would woulld you, as someone who is not a member of the Muslim community work against 'indoctrinating' future generations? What gives you such import that you are most definitely right and know better then us scarf wearing sorts? Is because you are properly Western and civilised and Muslims won't be until they are just like you?

I know you think that your comment was very reasonable, but it is loaded with assumptions that you really need to consider.

Btw, whoever it was upthread who said that wearing niqab isn't done for religious reasons, this is a very tiresome argument and you might as well say "Stupid Muslim women, I know your religion better then you do". It's arguing in bad faith.

From much earlier in the thread I know, but the Caitlin Moran comment I imagine referred to her saying something along the lines of "Are the men doing this? Is this taking up their time and mental energy? If not, there is some sexism going on."

On the head/hair/face/body covering: I wouldn't want to ban women from wearing this if they feel that they want to or if it makes them comfortable or makes them feel safe, but I would not want to encourage it any more than necessary, and I would want to work against indoctrinating future generations to feel that they should wear it.

I also think there are times when covering one's face is very counter-productive. I think that (for example) when passing through a passport check people should reveal their faces, or else what is the point of a passport photo?

She volunteers BTW

Maybe it wasn't the best example, but I was trying to respond to the point that you made about following the customs of others when in other countries, and trying to explain that these are people in their own country which are choosing to dress in a way which is not the norm, which has always occurred and included contravorsy and often gained disapproval.

Why do women cover their faces? Some believe it is.a requirement in times of fitnah, others believe it is not required but is praiseworthy. And the women I.know who.wear niqaab tend to be more involved in community work, voluntary work and politics then what is standard. They also do not mind taking it off if required to work. One example is a sister who works as breast feeding counsellor, and felt the benefit in helping others breast feed was more then the draw backs of not wearing while at work.

nailak There is a fundamental difference between your examples of transient dressing fads such as punk, minis etc. They are what is known as 'fashion' and fashion is not a cultural departure. It is not religious, it is not an article of faith, it is not a requirement (even if a mistaken one) by religion. If you are comparing the wearing of punk clothes and minis to covering you are saying that the burqa/niquab is merely a fashion like any other. I thought it had a more fundamental meaning than that.

There has never been a culture of face covering in this country - not even nuns, the most fundamentally religious in our culture covered their faces.

And I don 't understand your last point as I have already stressed I am against the state or the family telling anyone how they should dress.

I see you do not attempt to answer my queries as to the logic behind covering up. It would be nice to get an explanation.

Well exactly DarlingDuck.

I am not a religious scholar, but I do try to keep informed and watch the news, listen to the radio, read articles and books - Aayan Hirshi Ali was particularly interesting.

I think I know 'enough' to have views and to understand that sadly a great deal of the world seems to interpret the Muslim religion in a way that is used to brutalise and oppress women.

Of course that is going to impact on me when I see a woman in the West covering up. I am not going to automatically assume that she is making a free and informed choice.

I remember the teenage girl who wanted the right to cover up at her school in Luton. Wasn't she represented by Cherie Blair? The headmistress said that she was ok with the trousers and tunic but she resisted anything else because a lot of the girls begged her to - it was only the school uniform policy that stopped their fathers and brothers insisting they wore more restrictive clothes.

In every newspaper/tv picture of that schoolgirl, standing behind her was her brother. I do still wonder just how much that legal action was based on her own desire to cover up and how much was the product of the wishes of her (male) family members.

Yes it could be down to male sexual jealousy. And in forced cases probably is, not about religious beliefs, but this.

Miranda - That woman was only parroting an extremist interpretation of the Quran, which says women should cover up their valuables/ornaments. Considering that this was a time when women were attacked for their valuable jewellery, it seems fairly obvious that this is referring to concealing jewellery when out and about. However, some claim that a woman's eyes, nose, hands, feet etc are all part of her ornaments and so she should be hidden away from view completely.

On some TV documentary they asked a covered-up woman in Sudan (?) and she said it was because women are so precious to their husbands, their faces and bodies are covered like a precious jewel from other peoples' view.

But when it comes down to it, I cannot think that covering the face is right. We are all unique - we recognise our parents, family and friends, (and enemies!) by their unique faces. Faces are meant to be displayed.

It is not about dress code but about mindset. The idea behind the burqa, that women should be hidden from view, is abhorrent to the Western mind.

I do get so bored about the Western dress argument, there is no code or cultural norm, it is diverse.....one woman wears crop tops and mini skirts and another an M&S twinset.