Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

Their

Nothing, imo,

I wouldn't think those who wear it would say there face is shameful either.

Ok - I having thought about it, I retract that comment to the face. Tell me why?

Why?

What is shameful or inflammatory about my face?

spiderslegs, I would agree if you said the face. I think there are a number of dress requirements for men in many religions BUT I do not think there is a single culture/religion/practice whatever that makes a man feel that to cover his face is making him more worthy in the eyes of god.

So what is all that about?

what i dont understand is that is still using men as the bench mark that we should be compared against?

but anyway, men do have to cover their bodies.....

just less then women???

the mens awrah is between the navel and the knees, which is the same as the womens awrah in front of other women, according to my beliefs, others follow different intepretations of this so the womens awrah in front of other women is more.

I have to grind this discussion to a close now because WHATEVER THE OPINIONS, BELIEFS OR FEELINGS of anyone here;

No man ever, ever has to cover his face or body as a result of dogma, religious, personal, political belief or any other crazy feeling in his waters.

Ever.

I think polygamy is illegal because governments want to use the 'family' as a means of social control Cote
I also know they legislate on drugs, seatbelts, childbirth,marriage etc everything that is the personal. Although obviously with regard to drugs there are lots of other issues, I understand that governments take the liberty away from people.
My point was trying to illustrate that a mere piece of cloth isn't whats liberating or oppressive, but the institutions, both cultural and governmental that force women to wear them or not to wear them.

i dont, but we both know there are valid differences of opinions in islam, and followers of islam tend to refer to more then Quran, so if others have different view points, i might not agree with them, but i also wont invalidate their belief or interpretation.

Pam - This is not the first and only time that governments have legislated what we can and can't do with ourselves. Polygamy is illegal, even between consenting adults. Why?

nailak - What do you mean "they believe it is required of them"? I read the Quran and so have you. Where exactly do you see that covering one's face is required?

Is the burkha/niqab a male construct forced on women? I'm only asking because I don't know. My guess would be it is a male construct, however it is most likely seen by all women who wear it as being part of their culture (which it is, although most likely a male construct, very important to them) They should have the right to wear or not wear whatever they want. I actually find this tricky, my understanding is that women 'have' to wear it, but are happy to because its part of their culture, even if its a male constructed decision to have them cover up.
I find it equally as depressing that governments (constructed mainly of white men) are able to legislate on what women can and can't wear. I don't see a difference actually.
So OP my direct answer would be: I hate the idea of anyone telling a woman what she can and can't wear, but by banning it governments are doing just that. I wish it had never been 'invented' if thats the correct term. Excuse my lack of knowledge around some of the facts.

Yes, actually, I can compare anything to anything, as long as there is a valid point of comparison.

That is what comparison is. Not saying two things are the same, but showing that they share something in common.

I've always been torn with the burkha/niqab, as a libretarian I believe we should do/wear/behave in any way we choose.

But I think the last word of my previous sentence is the pertinent one 'choose', and after much thought I don't believe any woman who wears the burkha/niqab has truly 'choosen' to do so.

Any culture/religion/belief that deems women should cover themselves to protect them from men's uncontrolled sybaritic lusts needs to have a word with itself really.

So Muslims are both "sisters" and 1:2 billion Muslims, so you stand together bit do MOTO represent a common belief. That stinks of tribalism and separatism, when it suits. You speak for all yet all cannot be criticised as one?

i have said that they believe it is required of them or is praiseworthy according to their valid interpretation if islam, as such they want to wear it and makes them feel good to wear it.

You really can't compare an item of clothing to a drug, cote...

I'm going to ditto Nailik here.

I'm not a Muslim, so I'm not overly clued up on the niqab, but surely, where it is worn out of choice, that choice should be respected?

Last time I checked, there was no rule in the Feminist Hand Book as to what a feminist can and can't wear. If there was, I've probably broken every rule going (I'm quite happy with my high heels, floaty dresses and short skirts, btw... and I can still fight the patriachy pretty effectively) No one should have their clothing choices dictated to them, be it being told what they can wear, nor what they can't wear...

"why isnt "because they want to and it makes them feel good" a reason?"

So you have stopped claiming religious reasons for the veil and burqa and now are down to "Because they want to". Good.

A lot of people want to take drugs that make them feel good. Yet they are outlawed. Government has decided that these people are making a wrong decision and has taken the decision power from their hands.

No doubt you can see where I am going with this.

I could be utterly and completely wrong here, and I'm sure I will be swiftly corrected if so, but I am wondering if this is a generational thing i.e. we hear how women were pleased to be able to leave off the face covering that their mothers wore but now find that their own daughters are taking up face covering.

Could we perhaps be looking at the age-old tradition of wanting to be different from our mothers? A variation on "Surely you are not going out looking like that?"

I hasten to add that I am not trying to trivialise it but wonder if it could explain some of the changes over generations.

why isnt "because they want to and it makes them feel good" a reason?

Goth - Nobody is being hostile here. I think it is you who has a prejudice.

alexpoli - re "makes me wonder how it can be so open to interpretation if it is such a clear book"

Quran is written very simply and clearly, in words that even feeble-minded can read and understand for themselves. It's almost as if God was disappointed at our level of understanding of Bible (full of vague stories and allegories) and has dumbed down the next book

It is not actually so open to interpretation, especially if you are even slightly familiar with the context (historical and cultural). Quran says that it is complete, perfect and all a Muslim needs to know. And covering the face is not in the Quran - this is fact. Therefore, veils and burqas are not part of Islam.

Re veils among Turks - I haven't lived in Turkey for over a decade, but would say no, they are not getting popular. Back in '90s, it was non-existent. Maybe once a year, you would see a veiled woman and she would certainly be accompanied by a clearly Arab-looking man in white robe-like Arab clothes - tourist, in other words.

Since then, we have had significant and deliberate Islamisation of the country, thanks to our lovely modern and moderate elected government of Islamists. During this time, I have seen a marked increase in headscarves but still have not seen a single veil (and actually just now struggled to remember the word for "veil" in Turkish, that is how far removed it is from daily life).

It is very strange if the veil is in fashion among Turks in the UK. Headscarf possibly, but surely not the veil.

GothAnneGeddes You can't just quote an article by one women as if to say "See, that proves my point (or rather justifies my prejudices)".

I quoted one article which I read by chance this morning because it tied in with the theme of this thread, and I felt it represented an interesting perspective from within the Muslim world. And I resent the assumption that I did so in order to justify my prejudices.

I am sorry if you feel that these threads are nothing more than "demands for Muslim women present to explain/justify themselves, the then finding excuses to discount what we have to say anyway, the cherry picking of quotes to bolster previously held prejudices, the fact that they always end with the non-Muslim women congratulating themselves on how enlightening they are..."

I don't think anyone has said ""Well, I think you obviously have an attitude problem, that's why it is fine to dislike Muslim women and be hostile to them"."

Personally in spite of many years living in a Muslim society I am still unable to understand why women feel the need to veil. A generation ago, I saw how pleased women of my own age were to be freed from the restrictions of traditional clothing, and now I am baffled by the way in which a younger generation is returning to it. The arguments which I have heard put forward, which rely on a particular interpretation of the religious texts, do not convince me. If you feel that you can convince me of a good reason why they do so (whether or not you yourself wear niqab) please believe that I will listen.

Nailak - No, you're doing really well. It's just that these threads always have a set pattern anyway. It's more about people using feminism to justify their own prejudices then about actually listening to Muslim women. There's a whole internet out there, they could google and find so much written by Muslim women about these topics, but instead they'd rather bait someone on here, so that when you eventually lose patience, they can say "Well, I think you obviously have an attitude problem, that's why it is fine to dislike Muslim women and be hostile to them".