Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

Sorry, I mean no disrespect. I just come from this from an academic rather than a faith position. I totally agree with you about Chinese whispers and Ayesha.

I think it's perfectly possible to hold faith yet stand apart and view things dispassionately. There is a good deal of academic study into the writings that informed the Quran for example. But does knowing sections of the book existed before Mohammed lessen the impact of the book as a whole? I think not. Islam is, after all, part of a long tradition of monotheistic religions from the Middle East who all borrowed each other's writings. It doesn't seem to bother Christians that much of their canon is Jewish.

But I digress. The monotheistic Middle East religions are all strongly patriarchal. To live voluntarily within such a system is to have to daily do battle with a long, long tradition of female oppression. You do what you have to do to stay sane.

Goth - Yes, I'm a lifelong atheist - so what? I know what I am talking about, as you are well aware.

If there was any error in my posts, you would have pointed those out rather than whine about non-believers talking (frustrating truth) about Islam.

but i didnt say that because i dont wear it? i spoke about trends i noticed amongst niqaabis in uk, niqaab use in the uk is a growing trend

i spoke about islamic revival as part of a post modernist society, in which there is greater spiritual choice reflective of consumerism,

and i spoke about islamic revival in iran compared to celtic/pagan/wicca revival as people joining spiritualities that were traditionally and historically connected to the land they reside in?

how about this, as reflective of a consumerist society in which freedoms of the individual and personal choice are emphasised, many british born muslim women make the choice to wear niqaab.

is that enough wide trends and broad issues?

oh and i spoke about the trend in religious studies to involve followers of a faith and insider perspectives when studying religion.

Cote if you wish to have a discussion about validity of hadith, espescially those that are mass transmitted, then that is possible. still dont understand why you feellike your version of Islam can be the only acceptable version? and you dismiss all the other versions and interpretations?

Do you believe there should be one "state" sanctioned version of Islam? or maybe one version sanctioned by something other then a state? do you believe that someone else can dictate how another person should believe in and intpret and follow their religion?

How about a slight re-working of Posie's contribution above?

I think that when discussing feminism it's always easier without feminists, the discussion is far more free and 'defenders' tend to do so with good argument and not blind faith. Criticism is welcomed as part of the debate and not considered offensive.

All too often those that seek to defend all feminists then have to repeat that not all feminists think the same.

It's difficult when faced with defenders of feminism to really dig and pull apart feminist culture or anything really.

Or perhaps try the same with "socialism" or any other ideology or belief system. No matter how you slice it, it doesn't come out nicely.

And Posie, both Saudi and Iran are a small percentage of the world's Muslim population, so so much for your wider issues.

Again, you just want to spout bigoted rubbish.

I've heard it all now, it's better to discuss Muslims without Muslims being present and we Muslim women are equivalent to prostitutes, but you're not actually interested in what we have to say anyway because we're not the "right" kind of Muslims.

You're just trolling now Posie and it's disgusting.

Cote - You don't even believe in God, so leave off all the what is the wrong and right type of Islam, it's patronising and condescending.

Weren't we meant to be specifically talking about the niqab? Oh, I forgot, it's the regular Insult Muslim Women thread with the usually suspects spouting their bigotry.

slug - Actually, Allah says very clearly in the Quran that it is perfect, complete, fully detailed, and all you need to know to follow Islam. Therefore, if something is not in the Quran, like female circumcision or face veil, than it is not a part of Islam as detailed by God Himself.

Hadith is hearsay. It is Chinese whispers. Believe it if you wish, but even the quotes that are correct would be no more than a game of "follow the leader". Which you don't need to do because Islam is between you and your God, who was very clear that you need to know nothing more than what is in the Quran to walk the path that leads to Him.

It's not a case of being defended though is it? You can never really answer the questions why do people cover if we have to talk about individuals and can't talk about the 1.2 billion others. As soon as someone pops up with "I wear mine out of choice" it stifles the broader discussion about how we get to that place. How many Iranians, properly oppressed Muslims, feel such freedom without cover. Yet women here place themselves into a submissive appearance. No offence but I'm not here to talk about you, I prefer wider issues, broad trends and experiences.

It's a bit like when p*ernet prostitutes come and talk about how much they love their job.

there is a reasoning that says to study a religion, you need to include study of the followers of that religion as well as academic and theological views of the religion.

for example cote often refers to her grandparents and non believers have spoken in this threads about their personal experiences and beliefs.

im not sure then why believers personal opinions and beliefs or family traditions couldnt be taken in to count?

isnt discussin believers without including believers, like a group of men discussing womens issues, without including women?

and if you visit muslim forums, you will see that there are regular topics disecting faith led culture, or as they would view it, culture led faith.

the fact is if you are discussing an item that is worn for reasons of faith then obviously defenders are going to use faith as an argument?

I think that when discussing Islam/Christianity it's always easier without believers, the discussion is far more free and 'defenders' tend to do so with good argument and not blind faith. Criticism is welcomed as part of the debate and not considered offensive.

All too often those that seek to defend all Muslims/Christians/believers then have to repeat that not all Believers/Muslims/Christians whatever think the same.

It's difficult when faced with defenders of their own faith to really dig and pull apart faith lead culture or anything really.

Discussions on this or similar topics always make me feel queasy. I understand that many will have strong feelings on the topic, or strong feelings on religion (e.g. it's very important to them and their identity or conversely, they see no value in religion for themselves or anyone else.)

But, so often, it seems to end up that a small group of people end up seemingly "quizzed" about their beliefs. Sometimes, it's genuine curiosity and people want to know more. Other times, it comes across as expecting people to "prove" what they believe, but without any willingness to engage with them, where one has strong feelings in the opposite direction.

It starts to look like those being quizzed are being used as "guinea pigs," and expected to offer up their personal experiences for scrutiny by others.

I've seen this happen in a very unpleasant way in bad diversity training - where the one or two Black people, gay people or women's experiences are used as "case studies," and end up getting picked apart and sometimes even vilified by others who frankly, don't want to know. It can leave the few people who share their experiences feeling pretty vulnerable and sore.

Speaking personally, I don't believe faith, belief and feminism are incompatible. For me, they are intrinsically linked. I accept that that is not the case for others and their view is equally valid to mine. I choose not to discuss this on MN, however, because for a range of reasons, it does not feel "safe" to do so.

Slug - Not true and the "white grapes" has been thoroughly discredited. Yet more of "those stupid Muslims, they don't even know their own religion" stuff.

and dont forget the majority of hadiths were narrated by a woman, Ayesha ra.

but i guess by mentioning her i just opened up a whole new kettle of fish.

Actually claiming that if it's not in the Quran it's not in Islam is a bit of a smoke screen. There's also the question of the Hadith (sayings and tales of the prophet) and fique (jurispudence). Much of Islamic custom and practise comes from hadith, which is where you will fid the tales of slaughter of the Banu Qurayzah tribe and the enslavement of their women, and there's a sliding scale about how reliable they are. There are (scrabbles through old memories from degree) 4 schools of fique, so effectively there are four basic interpretations of islamic law. It's a fairly broad church.

And, just to muddy the waters further, the oldest versions of the qu'ran were written in a form of classical arabic that has no vowell markers. This is pretty much unreadable to amodern audience so, depite the claims that the qu'ran is easy to read and still read in the original, it isn't on either counts. This is why you occasionally hear stories about mistranslations. An example is the Islamic heaven which is ful of "dark eyed houris (maidens)". However, take out the vowell dots and revert to an older form of arabic and it could also be read as white grapes, which fits in rather nicely with the islamic view of heaven as a cool garden, but is not as appealing to suicide bombers

Given that Mohammed was a man and apparently spoke the word of God, God is sexist.

And most of the Old Testament and Jesus too.

[waits for token women to be trotted out]

obviously feminism and upholding the patriarchy are incompatible, the point is many islamic revivalists feel they are questioning and breaking the culturally patriarchal interpretations of religion.

GothAnneGeddes You seem to be particularly touchy here. I don't think that people have been throwing comments back at you. Personally I have visited the links you gave, but found that igotitcovered for example had lots of articles, but they were aimed at Muslims and did not make sense to an atheist like myself. Or they were judgemental towards the habits of non-Muslim women (one made reference to knowing that mini-skirts were wrong). So, since this is a discussion, people have come back to discuss and ask further questions. Not out of hostility, but out of interest.

Personally, I agree with Posie that feminism and patriarchal religion are incompatible. But if anyone who does not share that opinion would like to explain why, I am willing to listen and open to new ideas.

Cote Sorry, I think I used the wrong word in reference to the Turkish women. I see them wearing more and more headscarves, but NOT face veils. They used to all be bareheaded, now they cover their hair. Face veils are still a rarity. Some of the men have also started wearing those little white caps (I've no idea what they are called), but this has been very very recently.

Feminism can help everyone. But religious codes are rarely in step with feminist ideology.,

of course faith can be compatible with feminism,

i dont think my interpretation and understanding is compatible with feminism, but others interpretations are.

however i have recently used a lot of arguments that i have learnt from the feminist boards in discussion with muslims, about the status of muslim women. and i think feminist discusson has really made me understand some things more clearly.

"a mere piece of cloth isn't whats liberating or oppressive, but the institutions, both cultural and governmental that force women to wear them or not to wear them"

Burqa is a piece of cloth just like shackles are pieces of metal and the whip is just wood and rubber.

It is a tool of oppression, pure and simple. It is designed to make women faceless and shapeless. Not even second class people but inhuman in appearance.

My faith directly inspired my feminism,Posie.I've lost the faith,I think,but keep the feminism.

Couldn't disagree more. The only reason anyone follows religion, or has faith, is due to the construct of the patriarchal religion. It's a construct that suits man far more than woman, in the eyes of any God women do not fair well. Most prophets are male and central characters are male, unless they are in a supportive role to the man.

It always strikes me as odd that people suppose that they would have a relationship with God without the language of the religious scriptures, these scriptures are definitely misogynist. It's no coincidence that religious stories throughout the world have no over lap unless direct contact with eachother.

Feminism and religion just don't mix. You cannot follow the path of both as the gatekeepers of the sins of men and champions of equality.

LWR - You don't get it do you? I don't have to convince you, I don't have to jump through any hoops you hold. This is exactly what I mean about the dubious power dynamics of these conversations.

This isn't somewhere where Muslim women can discuss our lives and those of the Muslim women we know, instead we have to explain and justify ourselves, knowing that whatever we say will be picked apart and spat back at us and all this is supposedly in the name of feminism.