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Original poster

Witches - not cute or spooky hallowe'en figures, but actually the murder of lots of women?

41 replies

BerylStreep · 07/10/2011 20:12

I feel a bit like a kill-joy, but my DC are getting excited at the prospect of Hallowe'en (yes, it's become much more commercialised than it was in our day, but that's a whole other thread).

We've bought the walking bloody hand, and a dancing skeleton, but I think the fact that witches are still portrayed as scary hallowe'en figures misses the point that in fact this represents the murder of countless women whose only crime was to have knowledge or skills which men felt threatened by.

I'm by no means a historian, so someone will probably put me right, but my understanding of 'witches' were that they were often women who had a bit of medical knowledge who were vilified because they had 'too much power'.

If that's the case, why is there no discussion about what the murder of all these 'witches' actually meant to the role of women in society?

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GossipWitch · 08/10/2011 20:33

I dress up as a witch every halloween but I make myself look as gorgeous as possible, I very rarely see the ugly witch but I see a lot of corpse brides these days...

Tchootnika · 08/10/2011 19:28

This is a great thread! Really looking forward to reading the links, too...

Beryl - isn't there a positive side to DCs dresssing as witches, though? I don't see Hallowe'en witches as 'bad' characters - never have done: always saw them more in same vein as highwaymen - as glamorous, powerful folk hero(ine)s - as DCs do now.

StewieGriffinsMom · 08/10/2011 07:56

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DownbytheRiverside · 08/10/2011 07:17

I live in Sussex, Tiffany Aching books are indeed a wonderfully funny read.
I donated a set to my children's secondary school library,long with the witches books.
Like SGM, we have good charity shops round here and I keep my eyes open.

DownbytheRiverside · 08/10/2011 07:14

'Those who claim the title and try and portray themselves as exclusively benign are simply christians under a different name.'

What a bizarre statement. I agree that many elements of Wicca have been collated from different sources, and that some have filled in the blanks to their own specifications. Which makes sense to me when resurrecting a belief system that has been almost destroyed.
But Christian? Secret worshippers of the Son of God AKA Jesus?
How can you make that leap?

giyadas · 08/10/2011 00:27

Also the books with Tiffany Aching are all really good, I really enjoyed reading them as an adult and DD loves them, and I've converted one of DD's friends who was displaying obvious feminist tendencies. I keep certain TP books on hand and promote them at the slightest provocation Grin

Tyr · 08/10/2011 00:25

There was a thread about this a while back after someone watched a ridiculous attempt at a documentary by that new age American fuckwit "Starhawk." Those accused of witchcraft varied in gender; in Iceland there about 90% male. It was about paranoia and control.
Wicca is a modern invention with no historical validity whatsoever. Crowley and Gardiner concocted it with their tongues in their cheeks.
The word witch has always had nefarious connotations and rightly so. That is something to be celebrated and used to mock the self righteous. Those who claim the title and try and portray themselves as exclusively benign are simply christians under a different name.
Children love the spooky, mysterious and edgy. Indulge them.
As for the historical persecutions, as Anton La Vey once quipped, the real witches were sleeping with the inquisitors.

giyadas · 08/10/2011 00:20

Equal rites would be a perfect Terry Pratchett book to start with, honeymomster, also Monstrous Regiment.

Downbytheriverside - I love his witches stories, there's Granny Weatherwax, Nanny Ogg and Magrat, the maiden, the mother and the crone, kind of like a holy trinity Grin
The women in his books are stereotyped, but I like his stereotypes and they're not as reductive as other stereotypes so he gets a free pass from me.

GalaxyWeaver · 08/10/2011 00:09

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HoneyMomster · 08/10/2011 00:05

Which Pratchett should one start off with? I keep meaning to give him a go.

GalaxyWeaver · 08/10/2011 00:04

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DownbytheRiverside · 07/10/2011 23:37

People have always thought that about me, it is a matter of personal pride as to the number of Stepford colleagues I have disconcerted merely by existing.

Original poster
BerylStreep · 07/10/2011 23:14

It's been about 18 years since I read my last Pratchett. I loved it then, people used to think I was a bit Hmm

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DownbytheRiverside · 07/10/2011 23:10

'Do you know, I've never read any Pratchett. He's on my list but I've never quite gotten around to it.'

Shock Well, you are young, there is time. DD and I have been to conventions and dressed up and everything. Grin You may not get that obsessed.
Original poster
BerylStreep · 07/10/2011 23:07

Funny, we have all the Winnie books, and I don't find them offensive (I think because I identify with her hairy legs Blush), but it's the general idea of witches being baddies that I abhor. They're not baddies, or figures of modern day fun - it represents the lives of thousands of women who were murdered.

Interesting that the idea that the reason behind the green face and hooked nose was as a result of bruising and broken noses following torture.

When I said I was through a third of the other thread, I think I may have under-estimated it

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StewieGriffinsMom · 07/10/2011 23:02

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DownbytheRiverside · 07/10/2011 22:58

My DD took all my Pratchett to Uni. I was forced to buy a kindle to deal with the loss. She is also currently in possession of my copies of Delusions of Gender and the Equality Illusion.
Buy a booksafe now!
Or a kindle.

StewieGriffinsMom · 07/10/2011 22:43

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DownbytheRiverside · 07/10/2011 22:39

You may need two copies if you find it hard to share with your DDs.

StewieGriffinsMom · 07/10/2011 22:35

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DownbytheRiverside · 07/10/2011 22:29

I love Joan Aiken's stuff, and my set of those was illustrated by Jan Pienkowski. Double win. Smile

StewieGriffinsMom · 07/10/2011 22:27

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DownbytheRiverside · 07/10/2011 22:26

For littlies, there is Winnie, Meg and The Worst Witch, along with individual texts like 'Room on the Broom'

DownbytheRiverside · 07/10/2011 22:25

Riven's book might well have been part of a set by Joan Aiken, 'A Necklace of Raindrops.' Aiken wrote a couple of others, with quirky and interesting slants on traditional themes.
Terry Pratchett has done a lot to rehabilitate the idea of witches, Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg are fascinating representations of different aspects of the witch.

StewieGriffinsMom · 07/10/2011 22:23

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