Women like sex toys and porn.... some interesting info

Watched something on TV a while back on the subject of lesbian porn. Any opinions on this type of porn, made by women, for women ?

Yup, interesting post (and I am a fan of TMM anyway). However I still think the answer is for more good people to make good porn and make more noise about it.

Try again: www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/10/08/i-can-never-tell/

SGB Here is a very interesting post by someone who is definitely not a vanilla mundane, about how even amongst friends making supposedly ethical material, things can still end up going awry www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/10/08/i-can-never-tell/

I do not understand how anybody could be anti the sort of porn who is made by genuinely consenting adults (this does not mean to say that anybody who does not get aroused by watching others having sex is dysfunctional, though-everybody has different desires).

But, as it seems that feminist porn is as rare as hen's teeth, arguing for porn on the basis of the existence of feminist porn is like arguing that death valley in California is a temperate place to live on the basis that it is occasionally cool.

I'm not denying that there is some feminist porn out there, but the majority is not- that is why feminism is against it.

As others have pointed out, the conflation of porn and sex is really misleading. Sex is something I do, porn is something other people do, people who I haven't met and have no idea of how well they're being treated and are often filmed showing women in a demeaning light.

Also, let's take a look at the insults used against women who dislike porn: "Prude", "Frigid", "Dysfunctional", "Uptight"; in other words, if you do not fuck or get aroused the way the patriarchy wants you to, then you're broken and deficient. That sounds really liberating.

Finally, as for the usual argument that some porn is female friendly and empowering and good, that doesn't really make up for the 99.9% that isn't, particularly as it's that 99.9% which is permeating our society.

This is a really good argument against the concept of feminist porn being a major part of the porn market: rageagainstthemanchine.com/2010/12/20/get-on-the-fucking-ball-janitors/

You see, I wouldn't reach that conclusion at all and is another example of what I think is a flawed extrapolation that is designed to make women especially feel that they are somehow personally dysfunctional or prudish. Page 3 photographs fit the category of "porn made by consenting adults which doesn't feature abusive language" but what many opponents object to is the insidious reduction of women to the size and appearance of their breasts.

It's even more odious now because the accompanying copy openly mocks the models for their perceived lack of intelligence and invites the "readership" to laugh at the notion that firstly the models even have an opinion on current affairs and secondly, that anyone is interested in it. Objecting to that has got precisely nothing to do with the objector's personal sex life and everything to do with a political distaste for reducing women to the sum of their body parts.

I'm guessing you were actually referring to "ethical porn films" though and because I don't think that's what the majority of porn fans watch, or is the sort of porn that people campaign against, it seems a bit of a specious argument.

Not really, because in order to comply with the public decency laws and keep ourselves warm, we all have to wear clothing. We don't have to use porn to survive or comply with any laws in this country, do we?

I like your argument though, in relation to the flawed extrapolation that if you're anti-porn, you must be anti-sex.

It is a bit like saying you are anti clothing because some of it is made in sweat shops. Some porn may be made by people who are exploited, but some is not. I'd like to see teh availability of "Kitemarked" porn where those who want to view it can be sure it was properly made. Actually I'm not that interested in porn myself, but I'm not opposed to anyone looking at it. I'd prefer it was more "readers wives" style than blow up barbie doll.

I totally agree with the anti-porn arguments. I am against it myself, mainly for the reason that real women are used/exploited/abused to make it.

But this thread was about toys. I haven't investigated Lovehoney to see the range of stuff they sell.
But sex toys are not porn. Nobody is harmed in the manufacture of a bit of plastic with a battery in it. Lots and lots of women own these things, if they didn't like them they wouldn't buy them.

I'm not sure I want to see them advertised and marketed at me at every opportunity though. There is enough over sexualisation going on already in advertising without adding to it!

Higgle I think you're being a bit dismissive of people's opinions Most people on, say, the anti Lovehoney ads 'side' have good reasons for it, it's more than 'throwing hands up in horror'. And I don't see ramming it down peoples throats either, but explaining their views. which is fair enough. I'm just using the LH thread as an example.

I do think that we're expected to be horrified at being 'uptight' or 'prudish', it's the worst jibe that could be thrown at you. Well, it's all subjective, what you consider prudish may be wildtimes for me, or you may consider me prudish but I consider it private.(generic you). I say embrace your inner prude, if that is your nature. It's as valid a sexual identity as being MsKinky.

Ahem, I don't think Honeymomster meant the singer Madonna, Higgle ....

On the contrary, I think the arguments against porn on Mumsnet are intelligent and persuasive, with much more evidence to back them up than any I've seen from pro-porn posters.

I also disagree that there is "constant banging-on" about women's dislikes. Whereas I've often heard constant and insidious jibes that women who are anti-porn must be uptight or sexually repressed and that's such a flawed argument.

I think a significant amount of women enjoy sex and experimentation, but that doesn't mean they feel entitled to have orgasms at someone else's expense through filmed porn. Women are political - as well as sexual - beings.

HoneyMomster - maybe you are right about some parts of society, but just recently MN seems to have been the preserve of those who not only want to throw their hands up in horror about all these things, but ram their views down everyone elses throats too. No justification, explanation or logical argument, just a lot of strident "I'm right, you are wrong" assertions.

I'm not sure "Madonna" is the right word here, I think she generally prefers to be in the "whore" box, unless she is wearing tweed and playing at bieng and English Lady.

'The point is that there is this constantbanging on that a) women don't like recreational sex, unusual sex, toys, gadgets or porn and b) that there isn't any such thing, when a bit of digging around generally points up the fact that if a product is good and women become aware of it, they are interested in sexually-explicit media, toys, games, costumes etc.'

I disagree with this.
I think the banging on that's done nowadays is the opposite, that women MUST love casual sex, outfits, 'experimentation', must be more than just vanilla, must be pro porn, cool with their DH's going to lapdancing clubs etc. I'm sure lots of women do all this and are happy.
But there are also loads of vanilla mundanes ( SGB) who don't. And who feel their sexuality is being shoved in yet another box of someone elses' devising. It's every bit as stifling in our new 'whore' box as it was in the 'Madonna' one if it doesn't suit you. That's not liberation either.

Yes, but the problem is that while I agree that women can find porn arousing, it's a problem for feminism because there is the element of doubt that the person is not doing it out of their own free will or out of a desperation for money and that's a turn off.

I also think that there is a distinction here to be made between porn and visual/aural imagery that is sexual in nature but not porn as they occur in real life as part of real life and are not staged.

Incidental sexual things like stumbling across a couple having sex or hearing a couple going at it in the next hotel room may be very arousing, but it's not porn.

But I think that Ann Summers exists and does well is testament to the fact that women like sex toys. Furry handcuffs, rabbit vibrators are all pretty mainstream these days. I don't meet many people who 'bang on' about how terrible this is, really, I don't.

And I can't see the fact that women buy and use sex toys or read erotic literature is a problem for feminism. Why would it be? It's only plastic that people use at their leisure to relieve a sexual urge. Literature (from Mills and Boon hearts-and-flowers-three-dots mildness to really explicit stuff) is not a problem either, only words on a page, after all!

What I do think is a problem for feminism is pornography- which can depict real degradation of women.

I'm not banging on about 'women' not liking whatever. All I said was that I don't like it. That's different.

Oh and I'm not trying to imply that you are damaged. I was trying to make a different point but I really don't want to go into it all on here because it's a complete hijack of SGB's thread and not relevant to it.

If you've been on here a while you should know not to drag threads across the board.

Ah yes, the usual dishonest conflation of porn and recreational sex.

I love recreational sex. I despise porn because it's misogynist, exploitative shit on the whole.

Porn does not equal sex, that's all I can be arsed to say on this thread. Because it continually needs saying, becasue some people continually bang on about porn and sex being the same thing.

No, Sarah, you said these things on the other thread, which is closely linked as it is about sex toys. Everyone is very welcome to have a look what I said on the other thread.

You said on this thread that there was no "constant banging on...." and yet you have been pushing this message home yourself. It would be very boring to set out quotes from all of them but there is constant "banging on" about women not liking porn and being the victim of sex toys on other threads at the moment.

As a perfrectly normal grown up woman of mature years I do get very annoyed when I'm lectured to that enjoying being tied up spanked or having a bit of fun with some buzzing pieces of plastic is an indication that I'm abused/depraved/harmed in some way!

I'm certainly not trying to make you look stupid, just pointing out the inconsistency. "Poor form?" I've been on here a very long time and not come across this one before!

''The point is that there is this constantbanging on that a) women don't like recreational sex, unusual sex, toys, gadgets or porn and b) that there isn't any such thing,'

Higgle, bringing quotations from another thread to back up your point is seen as poor form, just so you know.

PLUS neither of those quotations is saying either of the things that SGB is suggesting there is 'constant banging on' about. I was stating my own feelings about them, NOT saying that a) women don't like recreational sex etc etc or b) there isn't any such thing.

I mean FGS if you're going to cross threads then at least make sure you ARE backiong up your point and not trying to stuff someone's words into what you want them to be saying.

The harmful argument is on another thread folks and was to do with marketing rather than the actual product...but Higgle doesn't care whether you understand that or not, she's just having fun trying to make me look stupid.

Harmful?? Perhaps if they renamed vibrators as "masturbation aids" rather than "sex toys" they would be less harmful?

I am not sure how a bit of battery operated wanking has harmed me tbh.

Why are sex toys harmful to women ?