Facebook supports rape?

"So was Wyre saying that 'The Average Bloke' was just the same as convicted rapists?"

No he wasn't. He was saying that rapists didn't have markedly different attitudes to rape, to "the average bloke".

You know waht, flying a tornado jet bomber doesn't mean you can't ever be a rape victim. I have a friend who knows how to drive high speed cars in a crowded area (with a siren) and how to use firearms and she's a bloody good shot. She's also a rape victim.

aliceliddell Thu 06-Oct-11 14:16:46 wrote;

I've tried to find a useful link to Ray Wyre's research on convicted rapists, but couldn't find one. He found they have the same attitudes to women and sex as 'The Average Bloke'. (Ray Wyre was an internationally recognised expert on sexual/domestic/child abuse)

So was Wyre saying that 'The Average Bloke' was just the same as convicted rapists?

Now I am confused. I thought we had got beyond that, and determined there was some distinction between them and 'average man in the street'. Cath Elliott reappeared on her CIF posting to detail that her words had been wrong and there is a clear distinction in her eyes between rapists and the Mr. Averages.

Looking-up Ray Wyre though wasn't fun. Just putting-in 'Ray Wyre' in Google revealed the dealings with the McCann's and then a connection with someone called Tim Tate (bit of a religious loony) and then worse, his introduction of 'satanic indicators' to a child protection investigation in the late 1980s.

Couldn't find any reference to his qualifications however. He was though a trainee Baptist minister at some point. He also wrote a book Women, Men and Rape.

Looking that up in Amazon didn't provide much detail (it was written in 1990), but I did find another book, an American feminist 'classic' from 1975 - Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape by Susan Brownmiller, which was subtitled on the Amazon picture of the Penguin edition (www.amazon.co.uk/Against-Our-Will-Women-Rape/dp/014004244X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1317913857&sr=8-4 "...a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear"

and that quote is lifted from page 15;

From prehistoric times to the present, I believe, rape has played a critical function. It is nothing more or less that a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear"

Must have skipped me, as I don't feel intimidated by all men and kept in a state of fear. I'm wary in certain circumstances and certainly wary of some men, but I'm not kept in a state of fear. But at the time (1975) there was a move towards defining women only as victims or potential victims, whilst my peer group was a bit more bolshy (one of my 'girly' school mates has flown a Tornado jet bomber for five years).

I'm still confused as to who you say has verbally abused you, rhubarb. Can we have quotes, please?

"I do not believe that being a survivor of rape gives you the right to verbally abuse someone else. I agree Amor that you have not done this."

OK so I'm a survivor of rape, are you accusing me of doing this?

And if not, who are you accsuing of verbally abusing you rhubarb and where?

I think we should get this sort of stuff ironed out because otherwise it just goes round and round and round

Where the hell have I verbally abused you, rhubarb?

Well? Please fucking point it out before I blow a fuse

Wamster, evidence of "intergenerational transmission of violence" is inconclusive. It is seductive to believe that violence breeds violence, but the facts don't back it up. I think folks perhaps want to believe that rapists and abusers come from "bad backgrounds," because that just gives another excuse for "othering" people with "bad backgrounds."

Rhubarb, having just come back to this thread, it does seem that you are taking challenges to your posts, disagreements with your views and requests for information to back up your assertions as personal attacks. They are not. I don't tend to wander far from this room, but in most discussion boards, it is considered very bad form to start new threads or hijack unrelated ones to whine about what's happening elsewhere.

As far as the original point of the thread, hopefully the idea that we need to be focussing on criminal profiling techniques as the key to preventing rapes has now been put aside. The real issue is ensuring that all men recognise and respect women's (and other men's) boundaries and are accountable for their behaviour. Some of that is about early prevention - ensuring boys and girls are instilled with self-respect and respect for others and challenging the views of those who already see men-are-entitled-to-sex-from-women as the default position.

My apologies Amor, I meant Dont who grinned every time you contradicted me along with SGM.

I have not dismissed your experiences, I have not told you that you believe all men to be rapists. I apologise if you think I have.

When you feel victimised as I do, and upset at being accused of vile things, I admit that fury gets in the way. Which is why I am no longer in a position to debate. I do not believe that being a survivor of rape gives you the right to verbally abuse someone else. I agree Amor that you have not done this.

I apologise sincerely as I do not want you to feel as upset as I do right now. I hope you will accept my apology.

It's like some women have been chatting up a guy all night, they get smoochy with him, end up in bed with him, things progress to more intimacy and they change their mind about wanting sex. Well, some guys do accept and respect their right to say no and don't rape them.
All the conditions may be present for them to rape and, sadly, get away with it owing to societal attitudes like shit like: 'well she was in bed with him' (boak). But they don't do it. I can only conclude it is because they respect other people's right to say no and don't feel that they are entitled to do what they want with other people against that other person's will.

Yeah, that's what I meant, people. Clumsy analogy perhaps.

No one has clled you a rape apologist.

I think it's quite telling that at least two of the people who have been outspoken against you are rape survivors. Surely that suggests that maybethe things you are saying are damaging?

I'd rather not get into a bunfight. I just think you may learn more from the survivors than you do from text books.

Actually Wamster I understand your post now about rapists being predisposed like a virus, I thought you were being mad previously. It was the virus talk that caught me out...

I think I see what you mean in that you mean being predisposed by hteir bad family background and the lessons about entitlement which they may have learned form their family/ environment. So if they don't have that feeling of entitlement, then they won't rape, even if the opportunity presents itself, because they're not rapists, is that what you mean?

Uppity. I do believe strongly that if a man is brought up in an environment where he watches his mother being hit and abused and that this abuse goes unchallenged by others- through ignorance or not caring about he woman- is going to believe that that behaviour is acceptable and if he is brought up by loving parents where respect and concern for other people are shown and that everybody -man or woman- is seen as being sentient beings to be valued, he is likely to carry the attitude that women are lesser beings into adulthood.

I'm not saying that this is the only reason men rape, but I do believe it is one of them.
He can change-as all of us can- but, by goodness, it takes a lot of work plus he has to realise his views are wrong in the first place in order to get help.

I am not using evil brutes as a direct quote- sorry if that wasn't clear. But I think it's important to tease out the implications in these arguments: it is too easy for people to believe that rapists are the monstrous Other, and not actually people who might be our friends or relatives. I think that the discussion should have focussed on the culture we inhabit which facilitates male entitlement and minimises women's personhood.

Lies! Ha! So it's fine to abuse me but the only lie I have told is what?

Right, I'm off. It's clear that SGM and Dont have just one agenda and it's a shame.

Thank you again SDTG - LeBOF I have, lots of times, read my earlier posts.