Facebook supports rape?

So do you think 'ordinary' means 'the majority'?

See, I would disagree with that. I think someone doesn't have to fall within the majority to be ordinary. I would say, for example, that it's quite 'ordinary' to be a British man, even though women are slightly in the majority in terms of the population of the UK. To me, saying 1/4 of people believe a woman is to blame for wearing sexy clothing, is to say this is an 'ordinary' view.

It is one thing saying that ordinary "people" not men, note, blame women for rape and another to quote stats that actually show that the majority of people, so 3/4 think a woman is not to blame if she wears sexy clothing, 70% think she is not responsible if she is raped and 63% think she does not have to say "no" clearly.

So the majority of "people" don't hold the views you say they are. Whilst those figures are still shocking, they are not the views of the majority.

Rhubarb, yes I do think many "ordinary people do think women bring sexual assault on themselves." Just a few clicks away from this thread, you will find this one can't believe this attitude re: rape and from women! which illustrates exactly that point.

Rhubarb, what does 'ordinary' mean to you?

I'm sure you don't mean it like this ... but it's not comforting to have you make a sad face at someone 'thinking' something you imply is wrong, as if the fault is entirely with them for being deluded. I get that you think it is sad and that is probably what you mean, it's just that so many people have said how they really have found these attitudes (and rapists themselves) to be 'ordinary', it seems harsh to suggest it is them who're somehow making you sad by saying such things.

Link

Rhubarb - a lot of people do.

"Amnesty International's 'Stop Violence Against Women' campaign, shows that similar "blame culture" attitudes exist over clothing, drinking, perceived promiscuity, personal safety and whether a woman has clearly said "no" to the man. For instance, more than a quarter (26%) of those asked said that they thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than one in five (22%) held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners.

Around one in 12 people (8%) believed that a woman was totally responsible for being raped if she'd had many sexual partners. Similarly, more than a quarter of people (30%) said that a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, and more than a third (37%) held the same view if the woman had failed to clearly say "no" to the man."

[[http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16618 From a UK survey in 2005)

"Ordinary people do think women bring sexual assault on themselves."

You really think that?

(Btw, the 'not all ordinary men are rapists' is a false chain of logic, and that was said a lot earlier in the thread, I am sure. It's the old 'all dalmatians are dogs, it does not follow that all dogs are dalmatians' problem with reversing a chain of logic.)

Isn't the problem here how we are defining 'ordinary'? To me, an 'ordinary' person is one who doesn't stand out in teh crowd, who holds views and does things others would consider unsurprising. It doesn't mean 'right' or 'ideal'.

IMO rapists in our society are ordinary men. Not all rapists are ordinary, though - and those who are not, those who are caught and studied by psychologists and get into the papers, are often quite obviously not ordinary men. But the majority of rapists must be ordinary, or we would notice them, because they would stand out in the crowd.

Does that make sense?

I don't see why it's upsetting (though I see it is for some) to say that rapists are ordinary men. I don't have a problem with accepting my DH is unusual in that he doesn't consider it's ok to initiate sex when I don't want it, or to carry on when I'm not interested. I think it's really sad that this makes him unusual, but looking over this thread it is quite obvious that it does.

It's like the 'ordinary men watch porn' argument in reverse, IMO: people who want to defend porn will insist that all 'ordinary' men watch it, and that any men who say they don't are lying. Of course we all know men who don't watch porn, but society wants to normalize it so society does. Likewise with rape, society wants to pretend it's not ordinary men, so we all want to resist the idea it is.

"Well the best way to deal with that, is to challenge rape myths whenever you come across them. Rape myths are based on the deep seated belief, that all men are really rapists and have the right to be so" isn't that what we were arguing about? That Elliott's argument could be read that rapists are no different to the ordinary man on the street? We have spent the last 2 days arguing that ordinary men are NOT all rapists and have tried, somewhat clumsily, to prove that. What you have said was the very crux of my argument.

"It really hurts me to think that there might be people who'd believe that my lovely sons are rapists who just haven't had the opportunity yet - just because they are male"

Well the best way to deal with that, is to challenge rape myths whenever you come across them. Rape myths are based on the deep seated belief, that all men are really rapists and have the right to be so, so it's up to women to stop them raping them and if they don't, then that's really their own fault because the men involved can't help themselves, what with them being potential rapists and all.

Once you get rid of the deep seated belief that men can't help themselves, you then get rid of any risk of anyone thinking your sons are rapists who just haven't had the opportunity yet. But when feminists challenge those deep seated beliefs, they're the ones who are accused of thinking all men are deep down rapists, when in fact there's no point in challenging those beliefs if that's what you think.

I don't think anybody is saying that at all, SDTG, and what you are describing about upbringing sounds exactly the kind of approach parents should be taking.

Kritiq - as the mother of three sons, I thought that's what I was already doing. I haven't read any research on how to do it, though, but have assumed that teaching them respect for other people is a pretty good place to start. Respect means, amongst other things, recognising a person's right to say what does and does not happen to their body. They are all disgusted by the idea of rape, and know that it is wrong (we have discussed it when it has come up in conversation, for example as a result of a news item). I have had less success when it comes to the concept that respecting other people means not thumping your brother because he won't give you the xbox remote.

But seriously - I don't think it is about 'teaching boys and men not to be rapists' - it is about teaching respect for others, and empathy, and instilling a conscience about behaviour. These, to me, are the qualities that will make the world a better place, and not only would those qualities stop someone raping or sexually assaulting another person, they would also stop them robbing them, mugging them, looting from them, defrauding them, abusing them, bullying them ........

It really hurts me to think that there might be people who'd believe that my lovely sons are rapists who just haven't had the opportunity yet - just because they are male.

This I like - a focus on the positive. Okay, who can find some research on men who choose not to rape? Are there specific attributes they share? Then work out how we instil these in the next generation of young men, and encourage adult men now to adopt those.

mooncup - yes, and I think framing it that way round is so much better than saying 'how can we recognise rapists'. It takes the perception of blame off women IMO.

Is there not a value, though, in trying to analyse why men don't rape, as well as why they do? I've been in plenty of 'compromising' situations with men who didn't rape me; I'm sure many of us have. Can't we ask, what are the factors that mean that some men rape and others don't? Is that not a valid and interesting question?

I don't think you're wrong either EllaDee. I think it's a good analogy

I think the Stanford Prison Experiment is interesting in this context. Basically, when given 'permission' (like a rape culture does), ordinary people can do things which any rational discourse would find abhorrent.