Facebook supports rape?

Ella - I agree that rapists often look like ordinary men. But to me, ordinary means that which I am used to, which I have met and experienced in my life, and have observed to be the norm in the groups of which I am a part - and by that definition, rape is not ordinary, nor is the attitude that rape is in any way acceptable.

I have a question, for those whose knowledge of the history of feminism is greater than mine. I have seen it quoted in the past that some feminists say all men are rapists. Is this something that feminists have actually said/believed, or is this part of the caricature of feminism that is used to discredit it?

But racism and homophobia are socially acceptable.

The BNP is a legal political party and people openly support them.
A christian couple recently went to court because they thought they should be allowed to deny access to a gay couple at their BnB.

If these attitudes were genuinely socially unacceptable these things would not come up. The people who hold these views are ordinary people.

Things which really are socially unacceptable - like people don't say that they think child abuse should be legal, or that people should be allowed to open their back gardens up as cemetaries. These things are not socially acceptable, and anyone who thinks these things would not be considered normal by society, and would likely be shunned.

"What I disagreed with was that this is a view that is held by the majority as implied and that rapists are no different from the average man in the street."

I don't believe that these things were either implied or explicitly claimed in the article (and yes this thread is now going round in circles).

I think so, proles, and I would think it's not really something you could deny (I'm not saying anyone on here has, btw). But then, if we accept that we do live in a misogynistic society, we must accept that not everyone does live by the same moral code we would all like to see everyone live by.

To me, I'm sorry, but saying that rapists are not ordinary men is both flying in the face of the evidence, and an attempt to pretend that the above is not true. It is true. None of us has to like it, but prejudices are accepted in our society. And our society tries very hard to make us believe that this is not so. And so people want to believe that rape doesn't really happen if you stay within the moral codes. We want to believe it so much that society generates rape myths, so we can pretend the rapes that happen so often aren't 'real' somehow.

This doesn't make anything better. It is a giant, collectively supported lie.

Ok and I agreed with her point. What I disagreed with was that this is a view that is held by the majority as implied and that rapists are no different from the average man in the street.

See we are now back to square one. Which is why I copied and pasted the arguments made by other posters at the beginning of the thread.

Now that we've come back full circle, I'm hiding this thread so I can get some work done.

Well what is rape apologism if not misogynist? These facebook pages that joke about rape are misogynist. The whole point of Cath Elliott's article is that the wider culture tolerates misogyny, and this culture of misogyny provides a conducive context for rape.

I think we can all agree that we live in a sexist society, right? I'm just checking.

Lenin - I agree re. those words. I think, as with elements of misogyny, there are always elements of prejudice people/societies choose to discount and see as 'not really bad'. People who once would have accepted a husband's right to beat and rape his wife, would not be shocked by it. But a large proportion of people would still not really believe that some of the scenarios described in this thread are 'real' rape.

Likewise with those words - so many people who would think they are not prejudiced and who would be horrified at, for example, the idea of sending disabled children to make baskets instead of educating them, will still be sufficiently prejudiced to use words like that casually.

Proles, we are talking about pro-rape views.

Lenin, again these are individual experiences but in the general media those views are regularly challenged and it is the media which has the biggest influence on this society.

I hope that soon it will no longer be socially acceptable in the UK to laugh at rape jokes, or to accept rape myths. At the moment, however, it is. We are therefore less far on with misogyny - or rather, this element of misogyny - than we are with some aspects of racism and homophobia.

This is not remotely surprising, is it? It would be odder if three strands of prejudice co-incidentally happened to become socially unacceptable in exactly the same way at exactly the same time.

Hence my point.

Misogyny is not seen as unacceptable in the way that racism and homophobia now are. Misogyny isn't even prohibited in the MN Talk guidelines.

x-posts.

We are not talking about other parts of the world, we are taking about the UK and in the UK it is no longer socially acceptable to be racist or homophobic.

Many people are shocked and horrified at Facebook, many large companies have withdrawn their ads, that should stand as an example that the views held within those groups are not considered 'ordinary'.

Ella - yes I know you are agreeing and I am saying be careful, because making that point earlier on got me into trouble. But I guess you will be forgiven won't you?

Your argument seems flawed to me also Ella.

Would you say the average man in the street is racist? Homophobic?
These are not socially acceptable views and those who hold those views are in the minority. Yet you would not say that racism is an ordinary view.

There is a danger, again, of accepting minority views as "ordinary" which seems to imply that it's ok to hold such views. They are not ordinary views and it is not ok to have those views. That is why there is such a stink about the Facebook groups. Because more people than not do not hold that it is a socially acceptable view.

Both racism and homophobia have been socially acceptable. In parts of the world (even in some parts of the UK - my dad's living room for example ) - they still are.

You and I may find this awful and offensive. But that is kind of the point, isn't it? We also find rape awful, and the attitude that women's bodies are not under their own control, offensive. Sadly - as with racism and homophobia - we can't pretend everyone will share our views just because we believe they are right. We have to start working on how to convince people - not just recognize and convict those who don't agree with us.

Yes it is very wearing to be going round in circles, I agree.

rhubarb, if you think about it, you will see that I am agreeing with you that experiences do not constitute data.

Your argument seems flawed to me. I've explained why. If you want to keep hold on it, of course that is your right. But I'm more interested in discussing the topic, if that's ok by you.

Comparing holding pro-rape views with vegetarianism is flawed.

One is a way of life another is an opinion.
Is racism socially acceptable?
Homophobia?
Of course not.

Kri - yes, that makess sense to me.

SD - I sort of see what you mean, in terms of whatever makes a rapist a rapist not being visible. But I am not sure how it works when a man doesn't believe he is a rapist. I do think it's more complex than saying there's some external moral code we all ought to recognize. I'm not convinced there is - or if there is, I'm not convinced we can all recognize it even if we should.

A man who's never questioned the idea he has a right to sex with his wife would, for much of the last century, have been very shocked and upset to find others considered him in any way 'lacking' or wrong. We disagree now, but the problem is, how do we change attitudes in people so all rape is considered wrong, by everyone?

Rhubarb, if anyone seems to be spoiling for a fight, it seems to be you. It is very wearing.

EllaDee - with respect. When I mentioned that experiences didn't make an argument I was told off for being dismissive of people's experiences so be careful with that one love.

I get the impression you are out for a fight. Today is Friday. I have spent the last 2 days on this thread. I have come back time and again and my points, my arguments have not changed. You want to know what I mean? Go back and read through my posts - or to save you trawling through read what I have written about it in my blog. You are wrong to imply that most people believe women are responsible for their own rapes. They don't. Your stats show that those attitudes are in the minority. If you think that still means they are ordinary views then that is your opinion, it is not mine.

I would like to hear from Uppity what she meant by her last quote as it seemed to tally with what I and the other posters I have quoted were all saying much earlier on to much disagreement.

Ella - I do not think that whatever it is that is 'other' about a rapist, is visible or detectable by another person. And even if they are moral in every area of their lives, and/or believe themselves to be completely moral, they are clearly not, if they are prepared to rape someone.

I do believe that, whatever it is that a rapist lacks, or whatever it is that is 'other' about him, makes him not ordinary, whether or not he makes headlines or believes that he is a rapist.