not a nice topic, but been annoying me all day

There seems to be an awful lot of confusion here over what is being said.

I am saying that rape is rape. Period.

Different people experience rape in a myriad of different ways, but that doesn't change the fact that rape has a simple definition (which has been given here).

None of us can arbitrate as to how another person feels about the level of trauma, or the different emotions they live with, as a consequence of being penetrated against their will.

This sort of seems to be what you are arguing EP whilst also trying to claim that you are able to define some rapes as worse than others . You are doing exactly the thing you are accusing the rest of us as doing, whilst we are being very careful not to do it .

We are not saying that all rapes are the same - that would be a ridiculous thing to say. We are saying that all rape is defined in the same way in terms of how rapey it is - that definition is, rape. To make any other argument is getting onto very dangerous ground (and very invasive for rape victims).

'You're dictating that they have no right to feel any worse than any other rape victim'

NO-ONE has said that. In fact people have pointed out that every victim of rape will react in their own way and that the circumstances of the rape are not necessarily linked to the depth of the trauma a victim will experience.

'I've not reduced any rape victims crime to being anything less than horrific.'

No, you've just repeatedly stated that some are 'more horrific' than others. And talked about the abuse of women...

'From the completely extreme cases all the way to the less extreme cases'

And how,

'being raped strangled and left for dead by the side of the road, is a hell of a lot more traumatic than being raped by someone you married.'

Repeatedly ignoring the fact that attemped murder and kidnapping would be additional charges.

You seem obsessed with grading rapes. And suggesting you're defending the victim's right to their 'unique' feelings doesn't stand up when you're talking about how people '(will) feel more horrified by what they read'. Read. You're not talking about the victim at all. You're talking about the public judging the severity of rapes.

And because people are disagreeing with you you're making comments about 'rad fems' and being told to shut up - which you haven't been.

Was it Ken Clark?

Can anyone remember that god awful politician who said that a woman raped by a date rape drug wasn't as serious as that of a woman raped in a park? How I'd like him to see this thread now.

I also know of a woman who was raped by a man she was seeing at the time he drugged her and did what he wanted with her. She only realised this had happened to her because of the level of damage he had done to her and she needed to go to the doctors about it, the doctor had informed her that no one would have been able to withstand the amount of pain caused by these injuries and asked her how it happened. She didn't know. Does that make it any worse or better than the lad I was talking about earlier? No, because they both are still dealing with the after effects of what happened to them. It is still horrific for both men and women to have to deal with it, it takes a twisted freak to do this kind of thing to any human being.

No, EP. I am saying that legally, rape is a very specific (and not very complicated) crime. I can recognise that the circumstances can have a different impact on different victims. I would not begin to put the effects into some kind of hierarchy because it's not my place to assess. The psychological impact of a non-physically injurious act of rape can be equally debilitating as a violent assault,

I just think it is vitally important that non-consensual penetration with a penis is seen as rape, regardless of who does it and to whom and in what manner. Additional factors are dealt with in sentencing and charging with other crimes, not in conviction of rape,

You know, our own body is really the only thing we own. So when anyone suggests that I might somehow have less right to that ownership than anyone else, because I've had more sexual partners, or because I'm a woman, or because I'm used to being penetrated, or what ever other ridiculous 'but' they can come up with, I feel a bit stabby. Consent or lack of consent means it's not rape or rape. That is the only degree worth noting. And these suggested 'degrees' of rape only serve to tell rape victims that they shouldn't be that traumatised, after all it was your husband/partner not some stranger. So be a good girl and get over it

Forbidden? Where did that happen?

Phoebe, it's not like that. One crime is burglary; the other is burglary AND murder. Nobody would call the second example 'a burglary'.

Sticking with the less-emotive comparison, a simple burglar may leave me with few ongoing repercussions but leave my neighbour suffering severe trauma. It would be right to have more sympathy for the neighbour, even though the crime was the same. Similarly, rape can leave victims with long-term psychological damage. And physical damage. The same act of rape can impact differently on two different victims - it doesn't mean one rape was less of a crime than the other, any more than my burglary was.

I knew a young man who was raped, and before he admitted that he was raped he would clarify to everyone he was not gay, my exh said to him eventually "what the hell mate! we know your not gay, why are you getting so upset about it?" it was then he told us what happened, he was terrified that we would think he was gay, and we had to explain to him that this guy that had done this to him was a twisted freak and that rape wasn't sex, rape is an act of extreme violence and rape is just as bad as murder and paedophilia and this needs to be reported. I don't think he managed to report it but he did tell his family and close friends.

Don't sully the argument with facts Aye. It's already been pointed out that additional factors lead to additional charges.

In the interests of education

FFS

Eastern Phoebe would you accept that being silenced by the meany radfems is 'less bad' than having your rl trauma triggered by insensitive posts which seek to take ownership of your experiences and tell you what you should feel.

Where does that fit in your hierarchy? I'd say it's 'less bad' and I shall judge you accordingly for throwing your rattle out of the pram for being disagreed with.

But the burglars that battered the householders committed 2 crimes.

And Mal, I can see where you're coming from on the personal experiences and fears thing. I think we all have thoughts and fears about crimes based on our own personal experiences and ideas of what things might be like. The problem comes with extending this speculation to then making judgments about others, and their experiences. It's much more complex than that.

Yes, well done. Now, back to the "It's worse for men, virgins and one-man women and doesn't matter so much if you've put it about a bit or if your husband normally brings you a cup of tea in the morning".