teaching our daughters to be feminine

I think that's a heavy burden for a child, BIWI. And is it fair to say to a child 'oh, see it as gender neutral' when that child will realize later on it was not so?

I didn't say it was gender-neutral, I said why not choose to see it as such?

Especially in the school environment.

BIWI - well, it's not gender-neutral is it? As the OP says, few grown women choose to wear ties. In fact, when they do IME it is either part of a uniform like the bow ties described or as 'sexy secretary' in magazines. It's not part of serious workwear - that is reserved for men.

Himalaya - ideally, yes. However, items like skirts and dresses are not worn by men (unless you're talking about a kilt), so they are imbued with feminine associations.

But in the case of a tie, it is very common for school uniforms to feature a tie for boys and girls, so why not see this as gender-neutral?

Perhaps the 2-4 ratio on tables feels bad largely because it replicates the awful token-women set-up that we usually get on TV panels -- comedy shows, discussion, etc, where one woman is sat with three men and therefore cornered into representing her gender as a deviation from the default gender. Those really are awful, and we certainly need many more panels with majority women in.

But within the school itself, I don't imagine it is likely to be damaging. There will be all-girl settings too (in playground etc there is loads of gathering around gender), and the 2-4 thing at least minimises the chances of a girl being the only girl at a table.

Seating arrangements are probably quite a headache for teachers and the 2-4 thing is a way of simplifying matters.

The tie thing: not a problem I think. Certainly less of a prob than the pressure to look "feminine"

Thanks for explaining about the ratios.

OP, I wonder if it's not so much femininity at issue, but resisting masculinity? That's just as much of a construct and frankly, it is crap if stereotypically masculine clothes are being presented as more appropriate in a formal/educational context, isn't it? What sort of message does that send?

Perhaps the girl will defer to the boys if that is the sort of thing her mother is teaching her trillian and all the more reason to treat her as an individual and not just a girl at school!

Saying that one a 4-boy 2-girl table the girls will always defer to the boys because they are outnumbered - does that mean you think that all boys always agree with each other and all girls always agree with each other?

As individuals they all have different thought and ideas and opinions. If there is a decision to be made when they are working in a group there is no reason why the split should be along gender lines.

Ties serve no practical purpose on an 8 year old boy either. Lots of schools have ties for both boys and girls though so unfortunately that is the uniform and you will have to get over it/ask the school to change it to a nice comfy polo uniform. Ties are impractical on children but I couldn't care less about the femininity issue as I don't want to force a stereotype on small children. Boycotting an item of uniform will just mark you out as being a PITA parent and mark your daughter out as different in her class, which I'm sure she won't thank you for.

A boy/girl seating plan in common practice in schools - generally for behaviour management purposes. If they had even numbers in that class they would have three of each on that table. I presume they are trying to avoid an "all boy" table. Or perhaps they have actually grouped the children according to something useful like ability?

Teachers are not really considering some "femininity" rubbish when they decide how best to arrange their classroom for learning. Generally the girls all play together at break and have ample opportunity to learn to get along together.

Becauseimworthit - do you really think people can/should just see all items of clothing as gender neutral? I mean could a school say 'our uniform for all is a skirt and boys will just have to get over the fact that they feel distinctly odd wearing it' ?

I feel the same about having to dress more "feminine" than my comfort level,Bonsoir. Uniform was ok because it was fairly plain.
I think people should be free to be themselves.

When I was at school we all had exactly the same uniform except girls also could choose a skirt. I like this.

You suffer? I think you need to get out a bit more, Bonsoir

LRD - my dd is in a class of 14 boys and 2 girls. There used to be 3 girls but one left because of the lack of girls.
The year below her has around 4 boys and 10 girls. These things happen.

Ties in juniors are just plain silly (for either sex...).
Ratio - well may be I should be worried that my son's masculinity will be threatened as in his year in school the ratio is exactly opposite (2 grils to every boy...). - it happens LRD - just one of those odd quirks of school intake and a particular birth year....
I am - I don't want my son to learn to masculinity, any more than girls learning femininity......and them to just be

I'm just confused ... how come there are four boys for every two girls at your school? That's an odd ratio isn't it?

I don't think ties are kind for children - a pain to put on and bad memories of how easily grabbable they were in playground games.

I think it's a pity to teach your DD to be 'feminine' though - let her enjoy being a child and decide what she wants!

I really suffer when wearing asexual clothing (polo/aertex type shirts, blazers, track suits, trainers). I stopped wearing uniform shortly before my 13th birthday (moved abroad to a completely different sort of school) and knowing I would never wear uniform again was one of the high points of my life.

Why do you allow a piece of clothing to determine how you see someone? It is you who is investing 'masculinity' into the tie.

(I happen to think a tie is a particularly stupid piece of clothing, but that's a totally different argument!)

And why do you want your daughter to be feminine? Why not just let her be her?

Shirt confusion there - aertex t shirts,comfortable,blouses/shirts of the collar and cuffs variety uncomfortable - to me.

Bonsoir - One of the things I love about MN is the insight you get into how other people feel - I've never discussed school ties with my friends.
Having worn ties at primary,secondary,brownies (like I said - oldish) I'd not thought that it could be interpreted as belittling.
But I'm not particularly feminine,so if I had thought of it as a boy thing I would probably have been quite pleased.

Personally I would have much preferred an Aertex-type shirt over a school blouse - I find shirts uncomfortable,they pull and bind, or at least they do if they are womens shirts. So I never wear shirts/blouses now,especially at work.

Your DC's school dress code sounds very sensible.

I hated wearing a tie at school. I cannot describe how belittling I felt it to be.

Well, at DD's school, the dress code is plain (ie no patterns, no logos) navy blue, plain grey and white. Your child, boy or girl, may be dressed in any combination of those colours or in a single colour. All coats must be navy.

I think this allows children to express their personality, their masculinity, their femininity and whatever else they want.

So,Bonsoir,are you really arguing for a non-gender specific dress code?
Because these two statements aren't compatible..
"I think girls should have their own girl-appropriate dress code"
"And if girls want to be masculine and boys want to be feminine, that's fine too. "

A gender based dress code does not allow scope for those children who do not want to dress "gender appropriately" - you can't have it both ways!

And I don't think any of us girls looked on our ties as a traditional marker of masculinity when I was at school!

I hate the whole ties-for-girls thing. I think it does show that a school isn't really thinking about the messages it gives to girls about growing up as confident young women. Instead it makes them dress up in drag that bares no relationship to women's professional dress.

Anecdotally I notice that girls schools are more likely to go for school blouses as the uniform (I.e. What suits girls) where mixed schools more often say 'uniform is uniform' and base it around the male standard. I've never seen a mixed school set their standard shirt as an open coller blouse - this is no more ridiculous on a boy than a tie is on a girl.