In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

"Feminists disagreeing = just as bad as trolling and cyberstalking and written abuse."

Sorry, I don't understand that. Feminists disagreeing (rather than ignoring or discounting) is something I am very happy with indeed.

So you ignore because you doubt your ability to respond respectfully? That is absolutely fine by me. I have found the personal tone of disagreements on this thread to be very upsetting. I still think that explicitly talking about the weather etc is a counterproductive and unpleasant thing to do. No need to answer. I'm putting my views across because they are important to me, not because I need a response from any individual.

Absolutely awesome post, Calatalie.

it's rather grey and overcast but still walkable BC. amazing how quick the transition to autumn has been though - just hoping for a long mild one before winter kicks in.

What's really difficult Calatalie, is that it's become almost impossible to distinguish those posters who want to debate and those who want to disrupt. There sometimes is not a rizla paper to put between the arguments. Some of them are coming from a POV of wanting to silence women on this topic, others are not.

It's why it feels easier not to engage at all. Plus I am so, so tired of having the same conversation over and over again. It doesn't get any of us anywhere really. I'm not going to suddenly have a damascene conversion and agree with you and I doubt you will either. So it's just circular. And wearying.

Well Cat, I see some people are ignoring my posts already, so they can rise above and do it

Easy when you know how

And by the way, there is a huge difference between ignoring on the one hand and actually focusing a gimlet of attention on a poster by a pantomine of oblique comments and off-topic remarks about the weather etc -- which is the very hurtful business of sending to coventry. Ignoring only works if it is exactly that. If people really did ignore derailers rather than engaging in such pantomine, discussions would work much better.

Swallowed, you are following MN's advice so as to ignore me? I don't really care whether you respond to my post or not; that's up to you. But the pointed comment about ignoring seems designed to position my contribution as something derailing, abusive, trolling? Can't you see how completely opposed to discussion that strategy is? It is a strategy of discounting those with whom you disagree.

Apologies if I misunderstood.

sorry i'm following mnhq's advice to ignore.

swallowed, "determined to feel hard done by" was a comment I made in response to a poster saying that she thought MNHQ were deliberately winding up the rad fems. I don't doubt for a second that there have been nasty abusive posting patterns that certainly invite the application of Mumsnet's "beyond the pale" criterion, according to which such posts/posters can be deleted/banned because they are not in the spirit of a site that exists to support. Of course such abusive posting exists. My view is just that that sort of acknowledged abuse can be dealt with by the application of normal posting rules, and also that the legitimate fury about posts of that sort is awfully mixed in with objections to contributions from people who either aren't feminists or don't espouse beliefs that other feminists regard as feminist -- in a manner that I think undermines the topic much more severely than the actual trolling.

those things aren't troll hunting - they're just links.

saf, I'm not 'piling in with the trolls to have a pop', I just don't see things as you do. Yes, that is possibly because i haven't experienced what you all have here, but it would be a lot easier to feel solidarity with you if you didn't immediately equate disagreement with trolling.

sorry for repeated posting but look at this quote:

"I can guarantee that IF the owners allowed an opposite opinion the feminist radical element would move on and shout in an empty space about their imagined woes."

and that's what the owners have done isn't it? they've said this is about feminism, not feminists, all opinions are welcome. and radfems have moved on and been silenced here and many more of us are tempted to do so.

really played into their hands.

quote from freedomofspeech:

Radical feminists have been either dumped or let go by men in their lives.

Radical feminists have aged and become sour and bitter, gnarled by their jealousy that normal women get attention from men and they don't.

Radical feminists prefer the company of their own sex, in EVERY department.

Radical feminists are childless and have womb envy which is why they hate women who have children naturally.

Radical feminists are very ugly.

Radical feminists can't argue a point in real life so they make pseudonyms and post their bilge on message boards.

Radical feminists still believe they are hippies from the 60's and organise "Think camps" trying desperately to validate their tired dog eared rhetoric and meaningless dogma to the bored uninterested VAST majority.

Radical feminists are despised by their own sex.

Radical feminists are mocked by the opposite sex.

I'm sure they loved hearing mnhq call radfems 'hardened'.

i take it the 'organic' on there is the prolific organicgardener who was here and took ages to get banned. another one that was all in our heads i recall.

yes do check out those links.

and all those who were defending bob and using him as an example of how mean the fems are and how they call troll to anyone who disagrees with them might want to apologise given the above evidence. ho hum. it's all still going on - people being named and targeted, mra sites sending in trolls that we're accused of imagining etc. joy.

what is worse is when other mn'ers don't support this and say oh don't be such drama queens, god you're determined to feel hard done by, why do you think you're special, what trolls they're all in your head you just don't like being disagreed with etc etc.

hello! they are real, we have been targetted and they are really nasty pieces of work. no it's not the same all over mn and no we'd really rather not feel hard done by or targeted. it'd be nice to stand by other mn'ers under attack rather than pile in with the trolls to have a pop.

oh AF! this is why i got really upset at this place - my posts and username being bandied over hate sites and people reporting what was going on to mnhq and nothing being done. HELEN i'm sorry but the 'we tried to rise above it' thing is really quite upsetting - it was real posters here who were being targeted - my posts and name were thrown about on at least 3 hate sites (probably more as i don't go trawling looking for it) to say oh just rise above it is - well not very reassuring or satisfying.

this is why i had my history deleted - was i sad to lose years of my thoughts and interactions? yes of course - but no i can't leave them on here when i'm being targeted by haters who spend their whole time targeting women who dare to talk about feminism. feminist bloggers and the like have been targeted and threatened in real life by groups like this. that's just not a risk to take when you have a child/children.

i don't know what they could do about it but deciding to do nothing and say nothing wasn't the good option in my opinion. you can't help when that happens to assume that HQ just don't give a shit - which irrationally maybe is a bit upsetting.

anyway just wanted to say i understand why you're angry/upset/shocked by it AF. it is different when it is your name and your posts being reproduced and you know you individually are a target - it's all well and good for others not in that situation to say oh ffs rise above, who cares, they're just trolls etc. but the thing is we're real people with real lives to consider and guess what the trolls and mra groups are real people to with axes to grind and hatred to act upon. i'm not a sacrificial lamb

i've backed off loads, tried namechanging, realised how fruitless that was, mnhq offered to change my name on the old posts but there's really no point in that - they know threads you were on that they quoted from they only have to pop back and see the namechanged post to know where it all is. besides which their will be a post after saying, "good post/what a load of shit SAF". doesn't take a genius.

so i resorted to losing years of daily contributions to threads and groups etc on here. if that makes me hysterical or over reacting then fine. but these are not 'nice people'. they are men who hate women so much they set up websites about them, they target female spaces and reproduce individual women's posts and ID's on sites that try to attract more hater attention to those women. who googles i hate women or anti feminism and joins these sites and groups? no one i fancy bumping into.

sorry stupidly long post.