If you could choose... would you rather have been born male?

Ursula LeGuin 'Left Hand of Darkness' is also an iteresting read (a race that moves through the genders - male/female/neither)

I think this is a hard question to answer because we have 'lived' as a particular gender. I wanted to be a boy when I was a kid (felt they had more freedom and better toys!), I was and am not particularly feminine so found the girly thing really hard - I didnn't fit - and my best friends were boys. Now, I don't know. I don't feel the 'oh its great to give birth/breastfeed' thing. I would like the confidence dp seems to have!

This thread made me think of the Culture as well, Bluegrass! Though it's an interesting feature of the Culture books that the characters seem to be essentially genderless anyway, as though their sex is just a superficial physical attribute like hair colour. There's no noticeable difference in behaviour or emotions or lifestyle or expected roles for the male or female characters, in fact there's very little mention of family life or childbearing/raising as far as I can remember - so he doesn't really explore very deeply how a genderless society would work, though it's interesting all the same.

The 'future' society in Marge Piercy's 'Woman on the Edge of Time' develops these ideas a bit more I think. Although the characters don't actually choose/change their gender, it's essentially irrelevant to their lives. That's partly because they've developed the ability to 'incubate' babies outside a woman's body, so women no longer have the 'special' role of motherhood, and men can be and often are 'mothers' as well - there's also some discussion of how not everyone would consider this to be a good thing!

In the fiction of Iain M Banks members of the technologically advanced civilisation called the Culture are able to choose to change sex at will, with the biological changes then happening gradually over a period of months. During their long lifespans they may change several times, and might well stay paired with a partner who themselves changes sex during the course of the relationship.

It is an interesting concept, if gender became an act of will, something that is fluid rather than (largely) set in stone then so many concepts, from inequality to what it means to be "gay" would fall away. Our gender would just be a changeable shell covering the essence of the "person" inside. What better way to learn empathy, or to remove gender based expectations!

garlic, I think you are lucky if you have never encountered the attitudes I'm talking about. I have though. Usually not expressed to my face, of course.

But if it really doesn't matter, why are there about 500 million articles on google about how many partners women have, how many they should have and is a promiscuous woman really marriage material (usually concluded that absolutely not, or as one columnist charmingly explained, "The more people use the object, the more it depreciates and the less bargaining power it has")?

Yes, we can dismiss those opinions as outdated, with double-standards and just plain stupid, but there are still many, many people who think like that.

as for the other question, we have a handful female managers in my company, all strong assertive women. We are also, again behind our backs, called bitches - just because we won't talk about fluffeh kittens only, but we ask people to do their job. Although none of us has ever even raised the voice and we certainly cannot allow ourselves to behave like several male managers here - jumping on tables, swearing, screming - still, they are just excused with "oh, he really cares about this topic". So yes, I do believe that I would have way easier life, behaving like I do now, if I was a man.

Ooooh interesting question.

I decided at a very young age (about 8 or 9?) that life would be SO much more fun if I had been born male. The idea grew and grew on me and I have spent most of my life sure in the knowledge that I'd have been better off being a boy. This is NOT about trans-gender confusion, it's purely societal - a logical reaction to me looking at my brothers and my male friends and my father and my parents' male friends and seeing in black and white that they have an easier time, are more admired, are given more freedoms, are pandered to, are given more licence, are louder, are funnier, are lazier, are more powerful...

Plus, I had very mixed messages from my mother who on the one hand adored the men and considered herself 'one of the boys' and was brutally dismissive of female friends and 'girls stuff' but on the other hand did 100% of the childcare, housework, cooking and 'womens work' so she would be sitting at the bar, roaring with laughter at the bawdy jokes while having done all the cooking beforehand and would do all the washing up when everyone went home.

But, my reaction was very specific to my rather chauvinistic (even misogynistic?) upbringing.

As an adult though I have learned to love women, and the woman I am. I now have lots of strong female friends whom I admire enormously for all sorts of different reasons, and whose company I adore. I call the shots in my family. I have discovered feminism, firstly through an older friend of mine and then explored it through Mumsnet and other reading.

So, on balance I would now say no, I would not prefer to be a man. Not in my life now anyway. It would have been an easier path being a man, but I like who I am and what my life is as a result of me being a woman. And I'm afraid I can't discount the baby stuff - that is a hugely important part of being a woman for me.

actually....
been pondering the op again.

i really would have liked the opportunity to be a bloke for a bit. because i think you can have more impact towards equality - get taken more seriously.

so i think being a feminist bloke would rock. a massive one, obv. i'm a pathetically small woman (one of the very few 'feminine' things about me) so it would be interesting to see what impact size, as well as gender, has.

it's a shame that the recent fem section visitors won't use their gender for the good. it could be awesome.

I am mostly happy with my with my female lot but I do think that if I had been a guy I would have had more sex. And no, I don't expect guys to initiate everything.

Completely agree Catitainahatita.

I think you nailed it.

Completely agree

I think that sex is used on a par with motherhood as a guilt trip against women in patriarchal societies. Just as you can't do right for doing wrong as a mother: witness the innumerable press reports about how particular aspects of "mothering" hurt children (bottle feeding and extended breastfeeding comes to mind).when it comes to sex either you are wrong for not wanting enough sex (ie "frigid") or wrong for wanting too much (ie "whore"). It seems that as a rule other people get to decide what is too much or too little not the woman in question.
I think every woman should decide for herself how much and when she wants sex ans with who. (Disclaimer : I think the same for men) And it goes without saying that the crucial thing is that all partners are willing and not coherced on any way.

For the novelty value and a laugh For serious research purposes I would like to try being a (tall) man for a couple of days though...

but as you say, you are an individual. and women have been told for donkey's years that they aren't naice gels if they put out.

how you feel is how you feel. and how women feel as a group (if that's even possible) has been influenced by how they've been told they ought to feel.

it's kind of why i don't really care if i'm a man or a woman. neither is going to be an easy ride...

Yes, AF, garlic, as a woman I like sex too, and I could easily have sex with a few different men particularly if I am ovulating - so far so good.

BUT, as much as I would like to, I can't get away with it emotionally. Having said that, I have no idea how men feel so I admit that my arguament is subjective and a bit crap. I just can't help thinking that equality for women as framed by the assertion we can have sex for it's own sake, no strings etc is alright in theory but unworkable in practice for most..

Generalisations/many stereotypes about gender anything probably have some basis in fact but obviously do not describe everyone as there are always individual differences.

YOu are needed here narks ...

well, your < tumble weed > reminder would have been more useful then

can't you pay more attention ?

and The Source Code is crap

Watching Source Code

To answer the OP,f you'd asked me 20 years ago if I'd rather have been born male,then quite possibly I'd have said yes - because I'm not good at femininity,I don't enjoy it,and while I wasn't furious about my life as a woman I've never really felt postive about it,it came encumbered with all sorts of stuff I am not interested in and don't want to do.I wouldn't choose to be a man because issues like misogyny/lack of equal pay etc,and being better off in that way.

But I wouldn't want to have missed out on having the children and experiencing pregnancy and giving birth (horrible though it was in many ways...!),and I loved breastfeeding.It was also very liberating to be doing something undisputably female,for what felt like the first time I didn't feel that I had to work at being a woman,because I obviously was doing womanly stuff - look,babies!
(if that makes sense?)

Now I'm not so bothered because I now feel more confident in being the type of woman I am,I am less concerned with what other people make of that.
Society changing and being happy with diversity would be good!

I know narks

but where were you 2 hours ago ?

AnyFucker, remember.

Thanks, AF :)

or, wiley, if we take it to a more basic level

because women enjoy sex, and some women, at some times of their life, enjoy it with multiple partners

and why not indeed

I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread. But if we get to keep our background/demographic and country and only change our gender then, to answer your question: yes. Absolutely.

I don't hate the femaleness of being female in any way, I'm proud of giving birth and breastfeeding, but there is no doubt in my mind that life is easier for a man of the same background, culture and class as me. No spending half my life in either hormonal or bleeding hell! No being required to maintain much higher levels of randomly-assigned ideas of visual perfection! The money you'd save, the extra money you'd earn! The automatic increased status! The massively lower likelihood of being raped! These are not small things. I believe it's possible to be 'me' but a different gender, so I would go for the much, much easier life. The only situation that I think is worse for men is in wartime if there is a draft.

We're humans. We've evolved to be able to choose courses of action that do not necessarily have to follow biological imperatives. Our ability to use our intellect to take ourselves beyond our instincts is what separates us from other animals.